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After reading some of the recent posts on hand painting, sign supplies and retro shop vehicles, I thought maybe some of the "Old School Sign Painters" might be interested in sharing some of their Tips and Tricks with us. Maybe tips that would help with layouts done by hand, brush skill tips such as getting sharp corners on your letters, without the use of tape, and so on. With most shops not doing much in the way of hand lettering anymore, and no structured lettering courses out there, someone wanting to enter into the craft, or to better their skills, has very limited resources to draw from.
The post on" Traditional Hand Painted" points out the faults of Sean's sign, but Rick does make mention of his approach on how he would do it. It might be second nature to an experienced sign person, but the novice lacks the experience. Back when signs were done by hand, tips and tricks would be passed on from the veteran to the apprentice, and working in different shops would provide you with a wealth on information and techniques. I've also seen some chatter on this forum, and others, about sign painting vs. hand lettering . Maybe some good tips on layout, and painting techniques, would help others learn the difference. I remember working on a show with some very accomplished sign men. We had some raw canvas awnings to letter using poster paint. One of the fellows mentioned he would wet the area to be lettered to keep the strokes from bleeding. Simple trick, but may never have pick up the tip if he hadn't shared it. It's easy to point out the faults in someone work, but taking the time to pass on your experience is priceless. You could look at it like a little letterhead meet online. Don't be shy, I know there's a number of very skilled, and talented folks out there. I know there is a section on the site for this subject, but I suspect not many go there.
[ November 28, 2012, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Rick Janzen ]
posted
Keep your brushes clean and always thin paint down to just a bit thicker than you planned. Do pages and pages of 'lick' letters on scratch paper like newspapers or butcher paper. Practice every day and learn how to use a snap line with two hands. Clear tape top and bottom lines to get sharp corners, then do the round letters. The rest just comes with practise once you master a maul stick and how to not drip paint all over the place. After 30+ years, still loathe 2" helvetica where I have no pattern and have to bang it out on the spot!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick, I think your post is one of the best yet. I especially like the mention of making sharp edges without tape. I refuse to use tape because that is the easiest way to loose your skill of doing it by hand, and if you do not have tape, well you had better know how to do it without. I will be in Atlantic City and very happy to answer any questions on the subject of hand lettering. Bill
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I really Miss those days...Having lived so far from everyone, and at a time when there was no internet or computers, I had to learn by looking at the occasional magazine that I found somewhere..projecting lettreset onto paper and making a pattern by hand with a pounce wheel, I never heard of the electric pounce..lol...I always used plain grease or vaseline to keep my brushes in shape, and it worked like a charm..but one thing I do not miss, is the constant headache I'd get from breathing the fumes of one shot, I'd go home everyday with one... not sure if anyone else would get them or not, but I certainly did.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Here's a curve for some of you. How about tips for us "left-hander" who tried to learn from most of you "righties" for years. Yes, I'm left-handed in case you were wondering and had to adapt to transfering what I was shown to the other hand.
I've seen very few left-handed signpainters featured in sign magazines over the years and always wondered how many are out there.
I still paint murals but very little lettering. I still enjoy it, but can't paint fast enough to make any money in a busy sign shop nowadays.
I've survived by changing with the times (and equipment) but still enjoy hand lettering and painting when I do get the chance.
So let's hear from the "lefties" too. I'm sure you'd be surprised to hear how the other side of the brush does it!
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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My Wife tells folks I buy left handed guills and brushes cause she can't make them do what I do with em...hehe Steve just think,as your watching a right hander, its like watching yourself in the mirror...I've watched Alicia J.'s videos and she uses a lot of up strokes, I do a combination of both the up and down stroke but for the most part I find the stroke structure of forming the letters are not much different between the left hander and right hander, the biggest challenge is painting left to right, and a freehand or hand over hand or maul stick pretty much takes care of that...
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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Being left-handed, script took awhile to master, and yes, reverse window lettering lets me "live life as a right-hander," for a while...;o) If you're a learner, save and date some of your practice work, to later see how far you've advanced! If using sign tape, you can always get the "round letter man" to finish off the job...right, Cam? if your brush is not cooperating...and doesn't improve, say a silent prayer, snap the business end off, chuck it(or add to your "signshop multimedia art piece" and...righto, you have a handy stir stick.
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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First! What is the difference between Sign Painters or Hand Lettering?
None it was all done by hand lettering artists!
I learned my trade back in 1957, two master sign writers took me under their wing and taught me well, all by hand, square corners and all that was required, outlines, shades, blended & split shades, highlites, gold leaf both surface and glass and pin striping.
Many years later I was with one of my teachers and viewed him using tape and was dissapointed to see that, first thought was he was losing it, took a long time till I tried it, found that in some cases it was quicker. Just another trick to add to the book of the trade.
Then comes frisket, hand cutting a mask, paint and peal. Times have really changed,now the computer and paint mask, honestly I prefer the old school past and when the power fails, I can still work as I have the old school knowlege, quills, paint and my hands.
It is a shame that most dont want to take the time to learn a old school trade. Keep the trade alive!
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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I am with you....I feel the same way....I have been doing this for over 45 years( I am retired, now, after a very nice ride on the "Sign Train" ) ....Nevertheless, it is very sad, for me, to say this, but I am of the opinion that the interest, of the newcomers, to learn this trade of painting signs,will, eventually,dissipate.....More so, when, slowly but surely, the sign trade has turned into a "click and drag" business...I am referring here to clicking and dragging other people's clip art and fonts into a sign area, to "design" or, like I prefer to call it: "to compose" a sign....Furthermore, anyone who feels that, he or she, can compose a sign and has the money to buy those super machines ( routers, printers, laminators, etc. )is immediately classified as a sign artist....
When I hear, some of these youngsters, claiming to be sign artists, it makes me think about what many of us had to go through, during apprenticeship, and, also, about some of the ( now, funny ) humiliating tasks that we had to perform in some of the shops, just to be allowed to learn the trade....I remember having to sweep floors, clean other sign painters brushes and quills ( God forbid I didn't clean them "the right way" ), painting backgrounds for neon signs, etc.....We were "young punks", out of Butera School of Art, in Boston, who wanted to "steal" all those secrets of the trade, from those so highly skilled old timers.....So, because of this, some of the old timers were extremely reluctant to share their knowledge with us, the 'punks" who wanted to be sign painters.....
You were very lucky, Mort, because you had two master sign writers take you under their wings.....I had to rely on the kindness of a few, who were willing to share their knowledge with me.....I am not complaining...on the contrary, I was very fortunate and very grateful to those from whom I learned this trade.
In addition, we had to, first, be liked by the shop owner....then, we had to impress him or her, every day, by, decently, laying out the signs and lettering them in a profitable amount of time.
In my days, most of the times that you went to apply for a job, at a sign shop, the shop owner or, maybe, an old sign painter, would come to you and hand you a piece of scrap panel and ask you to layout and letter a word or a line of copy on it....with a quill. You had to be prepared to either letter it using a script or " block letters", within a decent amount of time......You knew, in advance, that they were going to be checking on your layout ( which,in those days, was one of the tasks of the sign painter), proper spacing(now they call it kerning ),and those so difficult letters, for an aspiring sign painter "punk": the S, O, C, Q ...and, of course, the cross bars of the E, F and the Ts, etc.....Then,if we were accepted and trusted with a sign project, we were in heaven.
Maybe three or four years later, when we had learned how to paint a decent sign, in a decent amount of time, maybe, just maybe, we could claim to be a sign painter.
Of course, the learning curve never ends for us, it continues throughout our career, as a sign painter. Simply because when you work next to so many highly skilled sign painters, you start realizing that, still, there is so much more to be learned..........To this date I am, still, learning.
By the way, I think that hand lettering is one thing and sign painting is another.......You can hand letter on anything in front of you.....but you paint an acrylic sign face, with lacryl paint, using a spray gun.....I would call the latter a sign painter.......Nevertheless, I continue being confused because when you are hand lettering, you are using paint and a brush.....so, you are painting a sign, too..........Mort, let me know when you find out the difference, if any.
RD
P.S.--Incidentally,there is no shame in using tape to make your straight edges and, more important, to accelerate your lettering.......Remember, once you finish lettering and you are gone from the job site, nobody cares about how long it took you to do the job or how you did it ( with or without tape )......The only thing people are going to see is a finished sign.....and the only thing that is going to come out of their mouths is: "WHO did that beautiful sign?"......and, probably, they will ask: "Do you have his or her phone number?
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The ones who worked for old-timers they cd learn from were the lucky ones. In my whole life I've never worked for anyone who cd teach me anything, I had to learn it all by trial and error. That includes graphic design from idea to print, typography, hand-lettering, cartooning, illustration, logos, portraits, oil painting, framing, and photography. During my early years I was living in Clovis, NM, and I was the only artist for 100 miles around. People came to me for everything from logos to newspaper sports cartoons to decorating commercial trucks and I had to wing every job. That's why I'm still asking you all questions like what are Japan colors.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Hi Dennis, Here's a definition for Ronan Japan colors, hope this helps. "Superfine Japan Colors. Ronan is the oldest manufacturer of Japan Colors in the United States. Japan Colors are pure pigments and linseed oil with a combination of driers added to offer a quick drying, dead flat oil color. These pure colors are used for a variety of applications such as: Lettering, striping, stenciling, graining, staining, furniture restoration, glazing and antiquing. They can also be used to tint gloss oil paints where control of luster is desired. They excel in purity, tone uniformity, strength and fineness of grind." I think the best way to find out how they work is to give them a try.
[ November 30, 2012, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Rick Janzen ]
"The ones who worked for old-timers they cd learn from were the lucky ones. In my whole life I've never worked for anyone who cd teach me anything, I had to learn it all by trial and error."
I think you got this all wrong. You were the lucky one......you did not have to put up with all the crap and condescending verbal abuse we had to tolerate, just to be "allowed" to learn this trade....You pulled it off on mere talent....Of course, in those days, we didn't mind because, some of us, were, really, sucking their ( the old timers ) brains out and learning things that we could not learn anywhere else.....plus we were, right there, seeing, in the flesh, how it was done.
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"....plus we were, right there, seeing, in the flesh, how it was done." That's the main thing, Ricardo. If I can watch a pro get a sharp corner on a Helvetica letter w/o tape, even if I have to sneak a peak over his shoulder, I'll be able to eventually do it myself. But figuring it out on my own takes forever and sometimes I never can get it. Same thing -- I happen to be very good at figure drawing. Now figure drawing is almost always taught the wrong way in classes. I've watched 100s of fellow students struggling to get it with the wrong approach, but if they watched me draw a figure they shd be able to get the idea so they'd at least be on the right path.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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"Put some sailor pants on those letters" was one of the comments I heard frequently when learning to letter. It was explained how looking at corners on stroke endings rounded and softened with speed and distance. There needed to be some exaggeration of these strokes to make them appear straight and normal. The size and distance required us to have a feel for how much to enhance. Thus, all strokes that we wanted to look straight were really curves.
There are numerous illusions created in lettering.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Twirling the ferrule of the quill or brush to round letters or to taper brush strokes down to a tip to complete the ending of a stroke were where most students struggled. This twirling action was quite often combined with a lifting action to form the ending of a brush stroke.
To illustrate the twirling action, take a drop of hand lotion and put it on the thumbprint. Now, with either the index or middle finger ( depending on whichever felt more natural ) rub that drop of lotion into your thumbprint, using the finger of your choice. Now, grip the ferrule of the brush or quill so that it's prependicular to the surface you wish to letter. using your thumb & finger. Twirl the brush using that same motion you did when rubbing in the hand lotion.
That's the essential trick of brush manipulation to form the strokes necessary to do hand lettering without tape. If you can get your hands on one of the earlier editions of the Speedball Lettering Handbooks, the back few pages are illustrated with how the brush strokes are made to form both Egyptian ( block ) and Roman ( Thick & Thin ) types of alphabets.
Practice those strokes frequently and religiously, and your brush proficiency will improve.
If you have difficulty in properly gripping the brush, a trick to help would be to make up a " lettering glove" You do this by taking a regular glove and cutting off only the thumb and the finger of choice ( middle or index ) This leaves ONLY those exposed digits available with which to hold and manipulate the brush or quill.
I pass along these tips in the hope that they might help someone determined to learn how to hand letter effectively. No doubt there are other tricks and methods used by others that may be even more effective, and if so, I'm certain that those who aspire toward keeping this craft alive would be more than willing to hear them.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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My suggestion: Mix your paint solvent or thinner, with the paint, prior to starting lettering, until you get the consistency that you are looking for....Make sure of one thing: (1) Mix enough paint for your project ( mix it in a separate container ).....This process comes to be very handy,especially, when you need to get a different color, obtained by mixing different colors. straight from the can.
A last piece of advice:
When you are done with your project, use a piece of masking tape or a "Sharpie" to mark the outside of the can containing the paint that you just mixed....It's a good idea to keep that can marked for many reasons, which, at this moment, I am going to let you figure out by yourself.
If you stroke your brush on the palette ( with paint ) and, then dip it in the thinner you may not, always, get the same consistency that you are looking for.
In my days, if I would have done what your teacher taught you at school, on this subject, it would have gotten me fired on the spot.
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"and as time passes,the Seasons Change,wind,rain,sleet,snow,sunshine...yes, we call it Weather...if the signwriter was doing the "thinners dipping on the pallet thing", then now we get to admire and take photos of this "aged" lettering, and try and reproduce that effect on our "vintage look signs" painting "aged" lettering is more than going after lettering with a scrubbie...we're aiming for that "natural" aged look that comes from the occasional dip into the thinners when the brush gets sticky... and Time & Weather do their lonely job. sermon over, amen! ;o)
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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While on the subject of sharing, I thought it would be relevant and, also, interesting, to share this story...... which I imagine some of you may have already read......but, maybe some of those newcomers have not. Incidentally, some well known icons of this trade are mentioned in the story, told by Johnny Berg.
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