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We are trying to change over to latex paint.I have read a bunch of different things over years about guilding on latex paints. Do you need to put something between the paint and the sizing or can you size right on the paint?
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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I usually put a barrier coat of enamel between the latex and the size and that usually prevents any problems. Si's process of two coats of size evidently works for him, but I've just not tried it.
The enamel also produces a much smoother finish that gives the gold a better shine.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wasn't sure if that coat was more for adhesion or for the brilliance of the gold. Sounds like it is more for the shine. If it was for adhesion I wasn't sure why the sizing would stick better than enamel since they have a similar makeup. Ray I was hoping you would answer sounds like you have been using the latex paints for awhile and are doing similar type work. On a related question is all that MDO your coating out done in latex also? I assume your applying vinyl without problems? Is there anything you still use oil based paint for?
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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You might want to talk to Urban Billmeier at W&B Gold Leaf. 920-459-8206 He's a merchant here in Letterville. He was telling me about a new water based size that he sells that people are liking a lot. Might be worth it to test a small can.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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All of the MDO receives a latex primer and final coat, usually in a satin or semi-gloss paint because I do not like a really shiny surface. In latex paint the high gloss has a tendency to show imperfections more.
In all the years I've been using vinyl and latex I've never experienced a failure, but I use only 3M High Performance vinyl and 100% acrylic paints and never with a flat finish.
I'm not sure of the all the reasons for the barrier coat on latex for gold leaf, but it is more than just the shine, although I do believe it produces a better look. It has something to do with the way latex paint "breathes" that is not compatible with the size. Kent Smith would have all the fancy words to apply to that, but I just listen to his advice and follow it.
The only time I use oil based paint is when I put on the barrier coat for gold size (which I just did this afternoon), or when the customer requires it, and then they are give a disclaimer before I start.
What little pin striping I do is with oil based paint and the occasional hand lettered vehicle.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There is always some confusion about different chemical bases of various paints so bear with me for some explainations that may help. Pure acrylic primers will accept either acrylic, latex, enamel or gold size as a topcoat. (also urethanes for those who will ask) Often, tinted acrylics are not pure acrylic but have latex or vinyl additives which do not accept topcoats well. In this formulation, enamels will often adhere to them anyway. Varnish based quick size acts much the same as enamel does and a double coat will aid in a smoother finish. Slow size however, does not adhere well to the acrylics which have latex or vinyl because of its high oil content. One caution that Ray aluded to is that with many latex acrylics, the outgassing of the resin will last for many weeks, causing gold to lift off of the size as it is re-wet from underneath. Using a cured enamel as a barrier will stop the migration through the size. It is possible to use a first coat of quick size for a barrier but one should wait a day or two before sizing for gilding, allowing the first coat to begin to cure. The waterborne (not water based) gold sizes are acrylic adhesives which work quite well over most bases. As an acrylic, their durability is much the same as a quality acrylic topcoat but for exterior durability, they must be cured for a week or so before exposure to the elements. The other advantage of them is their even and long lasting tack time as well as a relatively short time for them to come to tack. There are two popular versions, each with unique characteristics which make them suitable for different applications. Essentially Wunda tends to be slower cure and more elastic while Rolco Aqua tends to be faster and more firm.
[ November 02, 2012, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks for the replies everybody. We plan on using Benjamin Moores Aura it's 100% acrylic and waterborne (don't know if that makes a difference or not). Just trying to do my homework and make the switch as painless as possible.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eric, one time I asked Kent about the difference between "water based" and "waterborne" and he gave me about a thirty minute explanation. The problem is that I still don't know the difference...but I do know there is a difference.
Si probably knows, but he won't tell anyone.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Waterborne means the carrier solvent is water for resins such as acrylic which have superior adhesion but are originally based in a solvent like alcohol. Basically, it is the water that evaporates leaving the paint to cure.
Water based is more like tempra where pigment is mixed in water with a simple adhesive added such as hyde glue or gum arabic. Once the water evaporates, they are not only dry but cured as well. They have inferior adhesion and are self-solvent meaning multiple coats will re-wet them.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Ray, glad to share what I have learned through trial and mostly error. I have always been repaid by others sharing and assume all Letterheads feel the same.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Kent is definitely the "go-to guy" - in addition to his technical paint and gilding knowledge, he can also tell you what to do when encountering a bear...
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Stein, are you meaning acrylic = water based, or acrylic = lacquer based?
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I have used acryl size for exterior use for the last 25 years, gold still good, but as i said flying sand or ice particles may reduce it cause its not so stong against abriviation as oil size.
-------------------- Stein Saether GullSkilt AS Trondheim Posts: 1183 | From: Trondheim Norway | Registered: Nov 1998
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Waterborne acrylic size is just as suitable for exterior use as is any acrylic house paint. As Stein has indicated, no acrylic (or latex) is as resistant to abraision as oil based finishes or size. They also must be applied to a properly prepared material which is also suitable for exterior exposure. Over time, seven years plus, all acrylics and latexes breakdown and loose adhesion as they become more brittle (that is why houses are repainted so frequently). The adhesive formulations used for size stay elastic longer, perhaps double which is also true for varnish based quick size. Oil size never drys and is still elastic when the last of the leaf weathers away, say in 40 or 50 years, depending upon exposure to the elements and the background to which it is applied. When not exposed to the elements, the durability is infinite as in Egyptian artifacts.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Modern acryl house paint last 15-30 years. I have a mural up for 12 years in direct sun and it is just fine, only the red is slightly lighened. Nowadays oil housepaints without lead will chalk and turn from dark green to transparent i 4 years.
-------------------- Stein Saether GullSkilt AS Trondheim Posts: 1183 | From: Trondheim Norway | Registered: Nov 1998
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Kent I checked the sizing that you recommended both seem to be for indoor use. Maybe I wasn't looking at the right stuff or are they indoor /outdoor suitable.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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According to thier lab techs, both are suitable and I have had good luck with them as well. They reccomend "vertical" exterior work which is appropriate for signs but as with any acrylic finish, standing water on the surface will degrade it. Stein, it is true that the high performance acrylics will last 15 plus years but the standard finishes that many buy and use from the discount markets, do not. I agree that old based paints do not last as they did, however oil size under leaf will last.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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No firearms needed for our local bears. They stay away from loud music and bright lights.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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As an avid backpacker, I'm often asked: "What happens if you meet a bear?" My answer is: "Always hike with someone slower than you are." Your solution opens up the realm of hiking partners to include the faster dudes.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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