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Living many hours away from our suppliers, usually things are purchased via telephone and UPS. Yesterday I needed to make a trip over to the central valley and really looked forward to visiting the supplier face to face. I had my shopping list ready to replenish my shelves filled with low and empty cans. Ever seen a major supplier not selling paint anymore? I did.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. Charles Mingus Posts: 6719 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I look around and see few of us hand lettering people still around. I would venture a guess that the average age of us 'hand' people is around 60, today. It is a lost art from that 30 years from now will be mostly forgotten, I imagine.
I see more and more car dealerships going with digital printed perforated graphics. They claim that being able to see out is why, but in fact the computer generated versions look very tight and can be amazingly photographic. I also see my main business of hand painting window splashes for the many car dealerships has remained fairly constant, but not expanding. No more fast food chains. I have no competition any more. Because of that, my talents remain more and more difficult to find and making the perf people that much easier to sell their products.
I have some areas of my market where I have most of the car dogs done and they continue. The perf people stay out, but I know the drill. They will lower their prices and enter. It is a fight to the finish, for sure.
I went to Glantz today and one of the older people there said he could not believe how expensive Lettering Enamel is today. It has gone way up over the years. Considering it is still a small part of my costs, compared to my vehicle costs and health insurance, it is affordable. The number of suppliers has diminished for sure. Getting a quart of any odd Poster Enamel requires ordering it from some remote place. I get my fluoro from a supplier in Maine and I am in Kansas! I used to go to Glantz and see a giant display case of brushes. Today, they can order them, if I will accept whatever they get. I order Nocturnas as they are at least consistent and do a fine job with what I need. I wonder how long they will continue to be made?
If any of you are under 30 years old and want to become proficient in hand lettering, perhaps you should stock up, because I bet in another ten years it will all be lost. One Shot with lead? Gone since 1970. We are utterly doomed, but hey, now we can charge whatever we believe we can get with less competition. It all makes me feel like a dinosaur.
Time to open back out the Atkinson book and look at those old formulas again with lamp black and butter of antimony. It will emerge as an alchemy, soon. We should form a secret society and write in code! Si Allen will be the Wizard or maybe Joey as the Sorcerer! Me? I will remain as a low level hunchback, hoping some pearls of wisdom fall into my failing memory and inarticulate quiver of maul stick skills.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Glad I'm not a smoker, $7.00 and up for a pack of cigarettes.
This is as much about Wall st. as it is the govt.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Still cheap here, if you like non premium brands...$2.85 a pack in the cartons of ten. They have made smoking a crime, just like being a drug addict. Truth is that it addictive and worse than any other drug! Gonna kill me yet.
I do not drink, but why is booze so cheap, still?
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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You did see my video when I bought the last of the paint from Grimco here in Washington and Portland,,,,, Paint Sale
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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The kids had a little raccoon they were letting go, but one of the dogs broke loose before the little critter could make it to cover. The dog killed it. I felt bad, so I saved the tail, thinking I might at least use that in a worthwhile way. The hairs sat upstairs for months, then the other day i decided to try and make an outliner brush I needed. I have a couple thin ones, but they're half synthetic or some weird jive, I've never been able to get anywhere near comfortable with them. I have made an outliner before from squirrel hair, it only worked so-so. This time though, I used different methods, and I'm really pleased with the results. It handles like a horse that wants to be ridden. As far as durable paint goes, I've said before that Dupont Imron Industrial formula (slower drying) with extra pigment and their "rolling thinner" makes a good cost effective lettering paint, except red. Kinda translucent. I've done hand lettering, illustration, even home window frames with it. Last year was REALLY BAD as far as income went, so I couldn't even replace a pinch wheel on my old 24 inch Roland cutter. Not a problem: I lubed the bearings, then coated the metal part with about 15 thin coats of Imron. I would put a small amount on a sheet of glass, then roll the part through the paint and let it dry. So far I've done 10 or 15 jobs with it, lost count. Not bad for a redneck experiment. So for me, it's about amazement that I'm still in the game at this point. I have a lot more work this year, and I'm going back to my previous policy of turning away jobs that can be done with a computer. Such an abusive way to be treated. Maybe I'll start a separate thread about the brush making stuff I learned. Not tonight, must curtail late night hours.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I had a problem with squirrels last year. A dray of them came in to feast on my bartlett pear tree and left me with none. I did manage to get a couple of them and tried my hand at making a couple of brushes with the tails. I could not separate the good hairs from the curled or funky ones and the two brushes were poor at best. I also tried buying some human hair from a wig shop and could not get the curl out of it. Guess I need to try horse?
Would love to try making some more. Any tips or tricks would be appreciated, if for no other reason than to simply try.
P.S. I have a whole tree of small pears this year and so far no squirrel problem. Maybe the warm winter or the big hawk/eagle looking bird that has moved in the tall pines out front has decimated them. In 12 years of living here, I have only had one year of pears and they were absolutely fabulous! Maybe, just maybe this year...
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Made a trip to my favorite NH supplier a few weeks ago. They still had a few brushes kicking around and when I grabbed a few and approached the new sales guy, he mentioned he'd been working there for over a year and those were the first brushes he'd ever rung in for sale. I and the rest of the long time employees in the office collectively paused for a moment, looked at each other and unanimously agreed that we all felt it was a sad statement of fact. One of the guys, a long time friend, took a minute to go through the records. As it turns out, the last person to buy a brush there was me. I've been doing business with them for over 20 years and they always have let me go out into the inventory area to pick whatever 1-Shot paints I've needed. This last trip was a let down as it was plain to see they were carrying less than ever and one very basic color I needed wasn't in stock. As the years have gone by and other technologies have risen in our industry, it's become painfully clear that the traditional tools and materials we have come to rely upon are getting more scarce and farther apart to obtain. I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to see the manufacturers looking more into direct online sales in the near future. Most of us order from local or regional suppliers and ship to our shops anyway so the costs are there. Being able to order 1-Shot, Signgold, HDU and other industry specific materials direct from the factory would seem like a plus to me AND them.
Just saying... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Has plenty hand painting work, yes it is tougher to get paints I want right now for a job, many times I have mix the colors needed, brushes just have to make use what I have.
If you notice the young generation has taken new interest in hand craftsmanship in all fields.
As we get more high tech ways and means .. low tech ways and means become also popular always has and will forever, we are human.
Yes times are changing but when the dust settles the will be plenty for all.
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This past mid-May, I had to get some exterior high gloss enamel to coat out 3 - 4' x 8' panels for a construction company. The local Benjamin Moore outlet is where I ordinarily get this, so off I went. They had the colour I needed, but to my surprise they offered it at less than half the normal price. When I inquired if they were having a sale, the owner informed me that they were getting out of stocking all alkyd enamels, and all oil based products. She cited the additional shipping costs and insurance costs associated with the handling & storage of these types of paints. She then offered to sell me any remaining stock they had at a mere $ 4.00 a quart....any colour or any quantity.
I grabbed a good quantity of the colours I felt would be useful, but knowing that in future, should I need anything similar, I'll have to seek out alternatives. End of the line for BM enamels, at least in this vicinity.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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I was stationed at Clovis, NM when I was about 23 and a guy in town who had a lunch truck called The Chuck Wagon asked me to paint a big sign-decoration on it. I had never done any trucks before and had no idea what kind of paint to use, so I went to the paint store in town (population 20,000), and asked them. They sold me an assortment of 1-Shot, Turp, and lettering brushes. I remember they had quills but I could see that I didnt know how to handle them. Wish I had a foto of the thing. It was a pretty good job. Big cartoon of a bow-legged cowboy cook ringing a triangle with one hand, with the other holding a frying pan with a steak in it, plus the "Chuck Wagon" in an arc.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Yeah, it's a sad thing..everywhere you go to get hand-lettering stuff, they don't carry them anymore. I also tried to get some liquid mask for a spray job recently, and they didn't have any Spraylat materials at all. Only good thing is, with some companies phasing things out, you can sometimes get a good deal About 5 years ago, a local Porter paint store was phasing out Ronan sign enamels. They had about 15 cans left, so I asked the guy "how much for all of them?" I think I paid about $70 bucks for all of them, and I'm on the last can now.
I've been trying to stay with the more traditional work lately, but you have to be willing to look harder and pay more, for lots of things. Worst part, is that they really sock you now for many paint materials you order online because of hazardous materials crap. Funny, ten years ago, they didn't charge you for that, when ordering the same product. Smell a rat???!
I did find a good primer, for any of you still interested. It's made by Zinsser, and called Cover Stain Primer. It's a stain blocker, bond coat....and oil base, so it flows out a bit. It dries quickly; and is pretty heavy-bodied, so it fills well and SANDS EASILY, and bonds to a wide variety of painted/non-painted surfaces.. I found it at Lowe's. I've been very happy with it; so most likely, it'll be discontinued soon.
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Dale, we've needed to re do several signs from that Zinsser primer. Within a short tome the colors changed as the tannons in the redwood came through. Ast this time on redwood we're using a water based Kelley Moore product called Acrya Shield and it's holding fine
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. Charles Mingus Posts: 6719 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'v been in business for thirty years in the Memphis area. I've been ordering paint and brushes out of town for thirty years almost exclusively until I started using HOK urethanes which I can get at a local automotive paint store. The local and only sign supplier, Tubelite almost never had what I needed. I can remember one time back in the mid to late eighties, one of their salesman came into my shop asking why I never bought from them. I handed him my latest "need to order" list. He called the store and checked stock....'we don't have any of those items but we can order them"........"so can I" I replied.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Rick, that reminds me of a disastrous painting I did when I was young. I had a commission to do a portrait of this veddy proper lady. I roughed in the drawing on the canvas using a burnt umber that must have had a lot of bitumen in it, unknownst to me. Well, I went ahead and painted the portrait, covering the drawing, and she loved the finished picture. Paid me for it and took it home to have it framed. Six months later, I was in Europe and got a letter from her. She was in tears. The dark brown drawing had bled thru to the surface and she said she now looked like Mr. Hyde.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. Charles Mingus Posts: 6719 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick, bitumen is a paint pigment very much like asphaltum varnish,while it makes for lovely shades and washes just like asphaltum it has some inherent bad qualities in oil painting due to the chemical nature of the pigment. it will not hold up well over time and tends to bleed thru glazes put on top of it. It is often substituted for burnt umber as a cheaper pigment and can create problems for the artist as it did for Dennis and many other famous masters.Thomas Gainsborough the English portrait artist used it and has made for many problems for current day museum conservators,...the pigments used in those pencils were red and blue dyes
Peace Brother,....
[ June 16, 2012, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. Charles Mingus Posts: 6719 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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it is probably the same reason the paints don't hold up as well Rick,...the epa won't let them use the same chemicals because they think we will eat them somehow and poison ourselves,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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