I need to get our Logo that you have on file sent to us because XYZ Signs will be making up a large banner for the trade show coming up. So if you are able to forward thatwhile you are away to send that to me, that would be great, however, if not, could you please send that to me as soon as you return.
When you do get back, we do need to talk about more lettering to the trailer and possibly lettering a different truck.
p.s. Steve from XYZ Signs says Hi." ____________________________________________
OK, so what would you do? Luckily I'm not in town for next few days, so have a few days to digest this and figure out how to handle.
I have this customer in the "Difficult People" category in my files. He came to us last year, we recreated a version of his logo because he didn't have it on file and the other shop didn't send it to him. I said I can't recreate the exact artwork someone else created. It's Unethical in my book. So we revised it for him and lettered a truck and a trailer for him.
(1st red flag)
Then I lettered it all on a weekend. (that's my fault for saying I would) You have to stand your ground and not budge because it seems certain customers will take advantage and honestly, why shouldn't they. (i.e. business management courses I'm looking into)
So, anyway,... I don't know how to respond to this.
First I was like, well, why would I send you artwork for free that I created so you can have another shop make a banner for you? Why can't I make the banner??? Why didn't you even call me? Or email me? Now it's a rush?....??
Then, Dave, my husband, said it's simple. Give him a price.
Lastly, he threw in that last line of he has more work for us. What is stopping him from taking this work to another shop once he has this art work??
He never puchased the logo. I created the new layout for my use.
So, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
THANK YOU!!!!!
p.s Oh and Steve from XYZ signs was screwing us for the last few years charging us $14/s/f for digital prints. We don't use him anymore. He lead us to believe he'd give us work, etc... took it to other person (wholesaler for cheaper). That's business! No emotions. Just Benjamins with some people. Nothing new under the sun. Just need to learn communication in these situations. Steve is a former sales rep for Airco - a big gas company here. He bought that sign shop 2 yrs ago when he was layed off. He's a business person, not a sign designer.
THANK YOU.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Send them the "Free" version, very bad jpeg.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Old Arab proverb: Live like brothers. Do business like strangers.
Ask him what file format he needs and let him know how much it will cost.
Then let him know you'll be happy to put his artwork in all of the most common file formats on a CD for him for $$$$$. That way he can have it with him all the time and share it with whomever since it will belong to him.
posted
This has happened to all of us. It's a loose/loose situation. Just politely tell them that you don't give any artwork away, this is how you make a living. Tell them you sell artwork, and would be glad to put it on disk, in different formats, for them to use at xxx ($200 is my price) Be professional. Most customers don't understand our business. Let us know what happens.............
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I think you're all exactly right. Just like Dave said. It is how we make a living. Who needs customers that are so fickle. (I think that's the word).
My personal challenge is just standing my ground. No worries. Focus on marketing to new customers. etc... I've wasted many hours on worry. Oh what are they going to say, etc... Who cares? I don't make enough $ to worry. & now I'm too old for it. Plus it kills the creative mojo.
It's very simple when you think about it. Common sense really. I just try not to worry that he's going to come to my shop. If he does, I am ready. I have my big girl pants on. LOL!! "Show me the $$$" LOL! I am going to wear my Tom Cruise mask. LOL.
When they own the logo, they can do what they want. I've sold enough to know that.
Thanks! Have a GREAT Day!! It's so sunny here and I have severe Spring Fever.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You might also want to explain that it's currently in a "proprietary" format and that you would have to spend some time converting it, thereby justifying your cost. You were wise to recognize that his last line was just a carrot. I hope he and Steve have a long and unsatisfying relationship.....
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Try this line...."Because you are such an ass to deal with I deleted the file right after the last job was completed." You won't believe how good you will feel.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Send him the bill first with the caveat that when payment is received, you will send the file.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yeah, I was going to ask him something exactly like that George! Like... WTF?? That was great.
Sonny, you're so right - carrot. LOL!
I've always had the good intuition of people but still would get into bad situations because I couldn't nip it in the bud from the very beginning. This is so liberating.
The rules haven't changed really. I'm sure this has been going on since the beginning of time.
Thanks for your good advice. I/We really appreciate it. Such a great forum.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'm just going to throw this out for thought. When a client brings you a logo that you know you have to rebuild or fix, that's really the time to work all this out.
Are they nuts for asking you for it? I don't think so...many many people don't have a clue about this stuff and just don't have the background to understand until they are told. They still won't like it, but up front there aren't any suprises.
It's a bit rude for them to ask for the logo, knowing they didn't even let you bid on the banner...but that's a whole other "problem".
I've actually only had one customer so far who gave me a logo I had to clean up and repair. I explained up front..."Ok, I can do this for just this project and to clean up/fix your logo is X...but I think you'll probably want to use it again later or in some other way and I can give it to you digitally for XX and then you have it forever. While he wasn't thrilled- he understood and paid for it. I'm doing a 3rd project for him now..but I truly believe that if this discussion had to happen after the first project was over...he wouldn't have come back.
-------------------- Doug Haffner Haffner Signs www.haffnersigns.com 309-338-9570 211 W. Williams Wyoming, Il 61491 Posts: 211 | From: Wyoming, Illinois | Registered: May 2010
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You hit it on the head Doug. That's exactly how I felt. This is how it will be from now on. These basic ground rules build the foundation of your relationship. The sale part is the most critical. It comes down to really having the customer have confidence in you. I am learning every day.
Do you think the economy has affected this? Or technology? The fly by night shops?, etc...
Regarding the other "problem". I guess that can happen with any customer ??? I've had a few do this. Use other sign shops. Or use a friend, or a customer of theirs. One of our customers was right next door to a new shop that opened on main street in town. So, I can understand. He's in there buying coffee everyday.
How do you suggest to handle that? Although I think you said you haven't had this experience. Thats a good thing!!
Thank you.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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The Haff-man has nailed it. From the clients perspective: Wow that Gal Diane was so great, she took a sows ear and made a silk purse out of it for me! She is so helpful she will not mind sending me my artwork, its easy all she'll have to do is send it, after all its already been created. Our perspective/first encounter: I know I really should be charging to fix this artwork but at least this could lead to future business. I mean heck every sign has to be designed and you can't always charge for a for it, after all it is one step that must be done. (Second encounter) They want it free? after all of that work the first time!? This customer is taking advantage of me and I am feeling like the bad guy now, What's wrong with this situation? Diane, you ripped yourself off on the first encounter and all the while you were denying it. Its alright we've all done it too. I am learning that any decent job needs to have a line item for design time. This will not shock most customers even though we are afraid that it may. Not being overly anxious to make a sale will take you to a better place with more options
Good designing!
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
I do what Sonny Frank sais (sp?). It's proprietary file and will cost you $$ to modify or you can find out how big the logo needs to be on the banner and send a jpg at 100dpi final size.
-------------------- Élaine Beauchemin scrip Lettrage Scripsit inc. St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada www.scripsit.net Posts: 1096 | From: Saint-Hubert, Québec, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
What about making a cartoon of you and the customer and from each of you would be thought bubbles with the words Bob said. Then send it to the customer and see if a discussion might arise.
From the clients perspective:
Wow that Gal Diane was so great, she took a sows ear and made a silk purse out of it for me! She is so helpful she will not mind sending me my artwork, its easy all she'll have to do is send it, after all its already been created.
Our perspective:
I know I really should be charging to fix this artwork but at least this could lead to future business. I mean heck every sign has to be designed and you can't always charge for a for it, after all it is one step that must be done. (Second encounter) They want it free? after all of that work the first time!? This customer is taking advantage of me and I am feeling like the bad guy now, What's wrong with this situation?
[ February 24, 2012, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We run into this all the time. In fact...so much that we often make fun of it when it happens. The way we combat it, is we tell them upfront (before any proofing begins) that if they so choose to use the artwork for any of their advertising needs, we charge x amount to provide them with x file types. It seems to be working.
-------------------- Sarah F. Evans Appalachian Signs and Design 186 Parkside Road Boone, North Carolina 28607 Posts: 97 | From: Boone, NC | Registered: Dec 2006
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Hey, that is a good idea! Maybe hang that in the new office/showroom when it's done!! As a joke. My husband uses humor all the time and the customers love it!
"Not being overly anxious to make a sale will take you to a better place with more options" from Bob Sauls - EXACTLY TRUE!!!! I used to be like a small dog and get all excited and roll on my back and pee... OMG TMI. LOL!!! Dave is so opposite, calm cool collected and confident.
I actually DID GET PAID a design fee to create his sign layouts. I charged him $145 for multiple layouts on his truck & big trailer. That included reworking his logo.
I usually get around $300 for logo design - simple stuff. I would like to get better at Design & then charge more $$. Working on it. Need to learn a little more about technology.
So, there is that factor too. I charge $65 avg. for Sign Designs. This includes multiple layouts and changes. I remember Dan Antonelli saying get anything.... even if it's only $25.
So, mabye I can charge him a small $$ fee to "rework it - put it into his format, pull it from archive, find it, to give a SH*! etc..." LOL. The GIVE A SH*! factor is very expensive. LOL!! I have to get back to him by Monday so all of this good advice has really helped me.
I DO WANT TO LET HIM know that I am dissappointed that he didn't give us the chance to make his banner. In a PROFESSIONAL way. Part of me wants to tell him to hit the pike but this is a good challenge for me about keeping professional, not taking things personal and learn for future tricky customers like this.
He does have every right to use who he wants. Just wish it was a small shop who need the $$ & not XYZ signs who's huge in Allentown & Steve who screwed us (which is my fault for not getting better pricing) I've since found another local shop to work with. Yahoo!!
OK, enough rambling... have a GREAT weekend & THANKS again for ALL the GREAT responses.
posted
OK, not that anyone cares after all my babbling... ha ha... Here's how I handled the situation.....after all of your good advice. I kept it Simple, straight to the point and avoided any jab backs at how dissapointed I was that he didn't call us to for the banner bid. Try to be the bigger person Dave said.
"Hi Randy,
I can send the artwork over to you. The Logo Design Fee is $295. You purchase all the Rights to the Logo. It will then be yours. I will provide you with all of the necessary formats you will need.
Just as a reminder, in your case, we recreated the logo because you had worked with another sign shop & didn’t purchase the rights. We charged a Design Fee at the time of your vehicle & trailer lettering. This fee covered several services rendered: the Art Work Time, the Truck Design, The Trailer Design, which included all the Digital Photos, etc… and graphic imports. This lower fee ALSO included ALL of the Revisions.
If interested, I will pull your files and reconfigurate them to all the formats we provide.
Thank you."
Diane & David Malesky Summit Signs 6751 Passer Road Coopersburg, Pa 18036 610-282-5855 See our work on the web: http://www.summitsign.com
It's a pretty basic 4 color line art logo. Didn't take me long so the $295 will cover my time.
Not sure if I really want to do anymore work for him, but I guess money's money. Like most, we don't have much so can use all the benjamins we can get.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It isn't clear in the email why there is a $295 design fee now, when you already "charged a Design Fee at the time of your vehicle & trailer lettering". It doesn't make sense.
If it wasn't worth $295 back then, why is it so valuable now? You weren't worried about the money until the customer wanted to use it for something outside of your shop. So, I would say this has less to do with money, and more about getting your feelings hurt over the lack of customer loyalty and the fact that you felt you had done him a favor.
In my opinion, whatever work you did on the logo is water under the bridge. You should have charged for your time back then, but you didn't. At this point it would make a lot more sense from a customer's perspective if you charged a reasonable fee for putting the files together in different formats.
I don't really see what the customer has done wrong here.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Diane Malesky: I remember Dan Antonelli saying get anything.... even if it's only $25.
I think what I said was - we all need to start somewhere - and yes, my first logo was sold for $25.
As stated above, you erred by not providing a line item for the specific task of creating a logo design, and what was included. From the beginning you should have disclosed what was included, and when you do, it adds value to the deliverable and is easy for the client to understand what they are getting, and why they need to pay a separate fee for it.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I've got a GLITCH and it's gonna take me some serious thinking and time to figure this one out.If you have the time and patience to wait on me I can be of great help.In the meantime your printer should be qualified to re-construct your art and then you can move on with your project.Sorry for the inconvenience but this is beyond my control at this time.I hope I can figure this out soon before it becomes a problem with a future request of this nature.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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the GLITCH could be most anything and in this situation its about deciding whether to release the artwork.Sometimes you have to come down to their coniving level.Every GLITCH doesn't have to imply the computer.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Wood: Sometimes you have to come down to their coniving level.
From what I read, the customer was actually honest about what he wanted it for, not deceitful. And, regardless of how you might rationalize it or what is implied, the GLITCH is a lie. You know it. I know it. They would know it too. I choose not to do business that way. Honesty is a much better policy.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I still stand by my belief that we are our own worst enemy.
Why do we have to say anything to our defense?
If the guy wants the file, give him a price and make it worth you're while or just tell him no. There's no need to make any excuses. If he ask, be up front and honest. The file has value and it belongs to you. You want proper compensation or he can't have it. Business is business. You're not interested in helping your competition at your expense.
posted
How long will it take for your competition to re create the file? How much do you think they charge per hour? With that info you could charge a portion less than their cost.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Diane, I've been reading this post for days now, and finally will give my 2 cents. It seems as an artist for me I take this way too personal. I really appreciated Glenn Taylor's post of Feb. 26. This takes the personal out of it. The final thing, once again for me, to do is once this is done "LET IT GO" because if I don't I'll be upside down. In the end, alot if not all of us have faced this type of situation so by sharing it may ease someone else's struggle. Wishing you all the best, waiting to hear how it finally turns out. Cheers
Posts: 97 | From: Summerland BC | Registered: Mar 2009
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Sorry, but I have the same questions as Russ. If you have already charged him (albeit less than you would have liked) why are you holding his artwork hostage now? I would think most customers would be pretty irate with us at this point if we approached it this way, and rightfully so. On top of it, if you "recreated" his logo, most customers would wonder why they are getting charged for your "logo design".
I recommend, you take a step back from this and rethink your position in the customer's shoes. If, like others have stated, you didn't work this out in the beginning, it should be your responsibility as the professional to grin and bear it.
posted
Many times, customers apparently view computer design as something intangible. I've heard comments like "so, the computer just does it" etc. Just yesterday a prospect wanted me to "play with it" referring to coming up with a design for them. At this point in time, I am spending my electricity, wear and tear on my computer equipment, and more importantly my precious time, and they seem to view it like I'm playing some video game on my PC. The same client is running a contest to see who can come up with a 'design' for this municipality. The 'winner' will get a prize while all the rest wasted their time. There seems to be no respect for other people's time.
My opinion, is that this customer would have BALKED at paying for the time to create a vector file. Most see the file as intangible until it's put on a substrate and even then some only see "I already have the plywood" as the tangible value of a sign.
When they come to you for a 'sign' or a 'logo', they don't care one bit about the time yous spent making the necessary files. They're only interested in the product they can hold in their hand UNTIL they need the file reproduced. Say you charged $600 for their first sign and they later need an identical one for another location and find that Joe Competitor will do the same sign for $500. So they ask you for 'Their" logo file. Well, you are enabling "Joe Competitor" to make the sign cheaper because he doesn't have to do any computer work....YOU did it for him. Sure the file is on your computer....but it's YOURS, not theirs. Would you hand over your pounce patterns? I wouldn't, and a vector file is much more valuable than a pounce pattern IMO.
If you already charged them for the logo, a separate charge, give them their file, but if you just sold them a sign, the file is yours.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
When I started work for my previous employer I could tell he was uncomfortable with the time I was spending on customer logos. The reason? He wasn't charging for them. They were part of the sign deal.
I told him I wanted to do them right, and to do that we needed to start charging for logos as a separate item. That would give us the budget to spend a few hours on them. We came up with a $300 minimum for logos, and I don't remember anyone giving us grief. Not everyone chose to get a logo, but a lot of people did. They also liked the fact that, once it was paid for, we would give them the logo on a disc and they could do whatever they wanted with it.
These people are in business, so it's a given they are going to want to use their logo on stuff. If they think it's their logo and you think it isn't, there must be a disconnect in communication. Who is responsible for clearing that up? If you haven't ever brought up the idea that the logo is going to cost extra, how is the customer supposed to know you want to get paid for it as a separate item? As far as they are aware, it must be wrapped up in the design charges if it wasn't specified on the bill.
I'm not saying we shouldn't get paid for what we do. Just the opposite. I don't think we should give logos away just to make a sale. Asking for the logo fee up front, when the customer has the option of taking or leaving the deal, is a much better way of keeping customers happy in my experience. Everyone knows what it's going to cost and what is theirs. Telling them it's going to cost extra after they have already committed to something is another story.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
My strong opinions come from an interaction I had with a customer that had used me for a lot of freelance design projects. On one occasion he wanted me to design a logo along with some other things, and was used to paying me by the hour. When it came time to settle up I told him the logo was going to be extra. He was surprised by this, and I stammered out my reasons for needing the extra fee. He paid me, and never used me again.
This customer was not a jerk. We had worked together on a lot of projects and he obviously felt I was changing the rules to take advantage of him. I knew I had made a mistake but it was too late to do anything about it. I got the money but I still considered it a loss.
If I could go back and do it all again, I would have opened my mouth at the beginning of the conversation and given him the expectation that logos cost extra. I have a feeling he would have chosen to go ahead with it.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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We try to make it clear with conversation and a clause on our work order that the design belongs to us and is available for purchase as a separate line item. Many choose to buy the design, and many spread it around without ever buying it. I've never pursued chasing someone down and challenging them with the agreement they signed.I'm trying to learn to feel complimented rather than resentful, and by that time I might find a better way.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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BUMP So what was the final outcome? What did you learn and do you have any advice now based on the knowlege gained from this experience? Enquiring minds want to know.
Posts: 97 | From: Summerland BC | Registered: Mar 2009
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