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This must be my first visit back to Letterville in likely a couple years? Pretty cool to recognize so many familiar names and faces! When a person hasn't been "here" in awhile, who knows what I've missed out on and who may no longer be with us in the sign world!
With that being said, I have a situation I would like to get some feedback on if any of you are so inclined. We hosted a couple of letterhead meets in 2002 and in 2006 here in Chippewa Falls, WI and I met a lot of great new friends when they came to town to paint murals. I can't tell you how many times people have commented about the sign painters and the projects and so many community members want to know when we will be having another Brush Bash!!
On the down side... 95% of the murals were painted with oil based lettering enamels and without having been to a letterhead meet in probably 4 or 5 years now, it seems most of the mural projects are being done in latex or something other than the "old standard" of One-Shot, Ronan, etc. Does this seem to be the case? Even though I followed the directions to a T, we have experienced some rather disappointing fading of the murals. We waited the full 30 days for the lettering to cure up and applied the two part One Shot UV clear over ALL of the Harmony Courtyard murals and on a handful of the other murals, but not over all of them. Within approximately 2 years, I saw the red's fading and I personally lettered the text and it wasn't overthinned yet it shocks me to see how quickly it had faded even with the UV clear.
On our own sign shop wall, The UV clear has "trapped" any moisture coming from the block and I have popped large pockets of water sealed behind painted wall... not even behind the lettering. These walls were primed, painted and ready to accept paint just as we did in 2002 yet some of the 2002 murals look better than the more recent ones of 2006! Those had NO clear applied. The clear has broken down and flaked off of the Studebaker wall and even the black paint has faded and broken down something awful under the clear.
Last fall, I scraped off the clear (flaked right off in many areas) and I painted over it and it looks pretty good again, yet in the Harmony Courtyard area, 25 plus people worked on all of the murals and "touching them up" would be near impossible. Has paint really gone that far down hill in the last 10 years or did I do something horribly wrong at the meet? I rarely pick up a paint brush anymore, we're a vinyl shop. Sad as it may seem, but I get more life expectancy out of the vinyl.
We've got some folks downtown with the Main Street program (new leadership, not the same who was so stongly involved with our 2 sign meets... thank you Main Street!) but they don't want to see them fade away either! They have suggested that we make a gallery and print photos of the same murals so they can last longer and replace the faded out murals. Sounds easy to them, and it is possible. Large format images of the murals could be made and affixed to Dibond and clear coated with automotive clear coat (I have had great success with this on several sign projects!) But, what about the hard work, craftsmanship and hours and hours put into creating these? Are we better to let them fade into history as "ghost murals" or do we replace them so they will last longer looking more vibrant? I explained that if anyone saw those murals being "painted over" and replaced, some people might come unglued at the thought of it! Tough call, but I am wondering if anyone else who has been in this situation might have done?
Thanks for listening, this was rather long winded.
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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Wowzer... it's time to update my profile pic. I haven't had that much facial hair of that dark color in 10 years or better! Lots more grey and wrinkles!
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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Kurt, I wasn't a participant at your meet but i feel your pain. Anything I did with 2-shot back in 05 & 06 has long since been trashed. Stuff I did with Porter or Para acrylics still looks awesome. I know most on here won't agree with me, but I would never use anything but Keim on a mural. When there are murals in Europe painted in the 1890's with Keim that still look good ( & the formula is unchanged) that's definitely good enough for me. Yes, you may not have the colour choices & it may slow you down but it's way faster than repainting it .... ever. Murals we did in the same time period look like the day they went up & according to Keim, it could be decades before we'll notice any fading.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 472 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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One-Shot was the standard used at all of the letterhead meets I had participated in since the mid 1980's. Including Plymouth, Wi in 1984, Red Wing, Mn, Mazeppa, Mn (3 meets), Tomahawk, WI, Jacksonville, IL, Algoma, WI, to name a few. To clear over the murals was based largely on feedback from Letterville... I asked those questions back in 2006 and got feedback from people with experience. There were a few that said not to use it, but the majority of the replies seemed supportive of it. I guess that makes for a lot of amateur opinions and mistakes.
If One-Shot makes such a product, then what is it's intended use?
Any other feedback or input much appreciated from others. Thank you for yours Mr. Pickett.
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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Much as I hate to say it since they reformulated one shot a few years back it just went to hell as far as a lasting paint.This I see you have discovered the same way I did,..the hard way,... I refuse to sell my clients a product that I cannot guarantee for over two years,..In my world that's worse than selling them signs done in watercolor and trying to get out of town before it rains,.....At one time it was a fine product but this is not the case anymore,...I pretty much think this is one of the major reasons Frank Manning left them,but that is only speculation on my part,...
[ February 05, 2012, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Tim for your input. This is not something I am trying to scold One Shot for, but it is frustrating for sure. With the EPA mandating no lead in the paint, it's a tough gig for all involved. I grew up using One-Shot and still have an entire paint cabinet full of it. It's used maybe two or three times a year now instead of every day like I used to.
In the land of digital printing, I can appreciate what it took to get to where we are in the sign industry, and I understand changes along the way. But buying huge dollar clear coat products to "secure" these murals and all of the hundreds of man/woman hours to create these works of art, it's just so sad to see them fade away so quickly.
I guess I'd like to mention again that in this initial post, I was looking for feedback regarding the future of the existing murals. Looking back in hindsight with the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" attitude doesn't solve my current issues. I'm looking for input on the best fix for the future. It's hard to digest whether these should be "painted over" and replaced with the same images (we have several photos of the murals when they were completed) that would be on panels that are basically photos of the original murals and have them sprayed with automotive clear coat. I don't want to erase all of this work that so many people put into the projects, yet with the main street association asking me for input, I would like to have some reasonable suggestions.
Having used UV/Graffiti clear, then it wouldn't even allow me to repaint parts of it would it?
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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We painted the Suwanee mural with OneShot on aluminum in 2006 and other than a little touch-up on the red guitar player, it's still looking good. I started to clear it with OneShot UV clear, but the first roller stroke said "WHOA, something ain't right" I wiped it off quickly and was lucky enough to get a hold of Tramp Warner on the phone and he told me flat out - don't use the stuff. He directed me to Clearstar UV clear (a water-based product) and it worked very well on a mural that's in the sun all day and has some very bright colors. I believe Bill Diaz has had good results with Ronan's Aquathane clear also....
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I've been painting murals for many, many years (make that decades) and with 129 large murals under my belt I think I have seen a lot. The bulk of my murals were done with a quality acrylic house paint. Some of the earliest ones are still around and surprisingly in great shape.
I recommend to my clients that the murals NOT be cleared. My reasoning is simple. Quality acrylic paints breathe, allowing moisture in the wall to travel through the paint - not be trapped behind it with predictable results - as you have experienced.
These days there are some specialty paints for murals. The brand of paint used at the last couple of mural meets were great. I'm trying one now I really like - Modern Masters Theme paint. Water based and with UV safe colors they mix well and brush on real smooth. Many theme parks (including Disney) use this paint.
So there's one more opinion for you.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am using Nova Colors Artist Acrylics from now on for my exterior murals. I used them for the big Hot Air Balloon mural down in Danville, IL a couple years ago. I also used them for the the Master Lock circuit board mural which was cleared with Clearstar satin. They are very nice to work with and I don't have to deal with all the fumes and solvents.
I have also work a little bit with Keim paints. They make a great product but their color pallet is a bit different. And we had to double coat a bunch of stuff so it takes a little extra work.
I generally do not like to clear coat an exterior mural, I've seen more bad results than good.
I have also had better luck with Ronan paints over 1 shot back in the day. I am now switching over to using Ronan lettering enamel for small panels and such.
Sorry the murals are not holding up very well, I do remember how much work we put into those events! Maybe we'll have to have a big re-paint party.... would be something different.
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Kurt, I suggest you DO NOT put any 2 part automotive clear over masonry backgrounds. If the substrate is non-breathable metal then use that type of clear.
ClearStar is a 5 year max waterbased clear that can be used over masonry. Schedule clearing every 3-5 years with that product if you are the care-taker of those murals. Even Gary Anderson has discovered that his beloved Porter needed a clear over suspect colors such as the family of reds and bright yellows. "HE" supplied ClearStar to be applied over his mural in Pontiac and it got cleared. The Porter painted mural by Noel Weber in Belvediere had to be gone over after a few years in the areas that were painted red.
To me periodic cleaning and clearing is an acceptable alternative to letting a lot of of talented labor get ugly and then needing a complete paint over. 1 person can clear a mural in a short period of time. In Pontiac the murals painted over aluminum panels with 1 Shot were allowed to cure and then were cleared over with a 2 part urethane automotive clear -- which takes some practice rolling, but it is possible. I uploaded a YouTube video on how to do that. Again -- DO NOT APPLY that kind of clear over a masonry surface or any other wood surface or any surface that needs to breath to allow the moisture trapped behind it to escape. Trapped moisture trying to get out caused that blistering you reported. You popped the bubbles and lo and behold you found moisture.
ClearStar should allow that migration of water to disappate which is why Sonny's mural is still going strong. He should reschedule clearing that mural within a year or so before it starts to wear thin and flake off.
I called the folks at Ronan and they gave me a good lesson on what I just stated and the science and all behind it. They recommended a product called Aquathane to me which they said should give me the best performance as a water based clear. I will try to give you details when I get back to the shop. I'm home now. There are 2 different Aquathanes, I believe -- 1 better than the other, so I'll check the #.
If your mural is painted in colorfast acrylic latex paint such as that being made by Porter or any other reliable paint manufacturer, (these colors generally are earth tones, blacks, grays, certain blues and greens, a whole host of pastel colors on the cool side of the color wheel), then I think you can spare yourself the trouble of a clear coat.
But, hey, just like with Keim, why limit the artist and his pallet. I do not believe Keim is a repaint product. It may be remarkable on never before painted masonry, but if it is painted over a previously painted surface that is going to peel soon, it'll not stop that surface from peeling and it'll come off with the other paint stuck underneath it. That'll be another hard lesson.
What's a shame is that technology has failed us, because I think our hearts are in the right place, but our products are making us look like amateurs at best and hustlers of a quick buck at worse.
When 1 Shot started to fail on my semi striping in the early '90's and I was getting fading that was not to my liking, I switched to urethanes. You should have heard what customers were saying about pinstripers and what crooks they had become. It was hard to stand there with egg on my face and I almost lost a part of my services that I really enjoyed. So after suggestions from friends in the autobody trades, I turned to urethane striping paints and saved my customers and gained many more away from those unwilling to make those changes. As time went on it was a happy day when I got a call from a competitor who said word was out there that I was the only one who knew how to get my striping to hold up. He wanted to know my secret.
The biggest disappointment is that sign paint manufacturers do not spend enough time teaching those who buy their products how to get the most out of those products. They have given up to the vinyl manufacturers and are just trying to hang on. They sure as frig comply with all gov. warnings which occupies 99% of the copy on their can's labels. Buy a half pint and try reading that info withot magnifying glasses. OMG!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Sorry, Kurt, that was me above not Jane. I didn't realize we were on her page.
Here's a rather long video on clearing the metal subsrate murals painted in Pontiac. I cleared over those that were painted with 1 Shot and those that were painted with Nova Color Paints:
And here is the link and discription of the Ronan clear Aquathane UV Absorber which I used on a couple of the murals in Pontiac and found easier to use than ClearStar. The rep at Ronan said they painted over their logo at their factory and that it showed no signs of fading or peeling at the 7 year level and that the colors were as bright as the day they were applied. That logo has a rainbow of colors if kyou've ever seen it. http://www.ronanpaints.com/clear.htm
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I had a mural in Pontiac that was torn down that still looked acceptable that was painted in'87. It had no clear and looked fine, but it was painted in just 9 colors most being sepias with a pastel sky blue and white. It was painted with Devoe's Regency House acrylic latex paint. I don't think Devoe still exists. I don't believe it would have held up like that if it was like Sonny's mural with the 2 figures -- one painted in red and the other in purple. Those 2 colors would have been gone without a UV clear. That mural wouldn't be the same without those 2 colors and why as artists should we have to feel like we can't use some colors for fear of them fading.
Most of the major brands of paint in North America have chemists who analyze and duplicate all successful premium paints. There are no secrets out there, just marketing decisions.
Some latex paints have plans to eliminate ethylene glycol as an ingredient. So if you've been relying on a latex paint that has it and all of sudden it doesn't perform like it did, you can be sure the resin or adhesive quality may have been effected by the elimination of this component. Sort of like lead, ethylene glycol is hazardous to both the painter and the environment, but it is used in all sorts of products.
To clear or not to clear. Well I think Grandpa Dan is a genius in many ways, but Dan's not making his own paint (I think) and he's a victim of what's out there just like the rest of us. There's probably no way he can check up on all 126 murals, and although I am behind him in numbers, I still have tons of signs and even my house close by to check on paint and how it behaves. I have seen all kinds of situations and results. Dan and I may have found paints we like and both of us are going to have to wait and see how they perform and surely we will both be great grandpas by then, but you can be sure that changes will be many and constant on the products we use and we are always going to be asked to guarantee an unknown. In the end all you can really say is "I'll do my best." I hope our customer understand our limitations.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Whether they are concrete block walls or brick, I have seen the best results with just any good quality latex with no clear. Sherwin Williams or Behr seems to work fine. Reds do seem to fade worse, but double coating does help them considerably. I did a fancy multi color permanent sign on alum panel eleven years ago that gets direct sun. The red faded within four years with no clear. It was triple coated. Today it is still up and slightly faded, but the company is on hard times in a tough location. Will redo it some time this year, but they will take it down and let me repaint it there on site. I will not use clear, but am tempted to use hardener in the One Shot? If it was on brick or block, I would have done it in latex.
I did see that Home Depot is closing out the Martha Stuart brand of exterior latex and gallons are $10 close out. (Doubt if Martha Stuart had anything to do with the formulation of the latex base, but who cares at ten bucks a gallon.) I needed some dark blue last week to 3" outline a window and used it (double coats with a roller). The window will only be up for six months and it is out of the rain and sun, so no problems. The $10 price is definitely right.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thank you all so, so, so much for your positive and very informative replies!! All of the information is valuable and will be printed out and saved because much of it is brand specific and knowing what products you have used successfully is great feedback.
With that being said, I guess I feel like I wish I could have done things differently back at both of our letterhead meets, but having been an exclusively oil based painter, (mainly One Shot) since my early days of sign painting, it's what I was used to using and trusted for so many years.
Sponsors stepped up with paint products and we used those in addition to buying at our own expense more of the same paint. I do recall at least one sign painter brought along some Ronan bulletin enamel that was used as well.
More than one reply noted the use of latex paint because it is breathable and flexible on masonry or block, and that sounds like it makes perfect sense. Aside from that, and not to beat a dead horse, but just asking about the qualities or limitations or expectations of the two part UV/Graffiti clear that we used... to get only 2 to 3 years before it was noticeably fading was the hardest part to take. For some reason, the only mural that suffered the problems of sealing in moisture was the one on our sign shop which was 8" cinder block. The softer red brick murals didn't have that issue but they all suffered from the fading.
Consider it a hard lesson learned with the products that were used on the murals. It's a huge responsibility to host a meet and now to look at the current state of the murals and feel the lone responsibility after all of the painters are gone is overwhelming. If we hosted another meet, I now know it would be done much differently using the best products possible.
Now to address the current situation at hand... what do with the murals now. If Main Street and sponsors are willing to raise money for "replacing" the Harmony Courtyard murals one by one with panels, I hope the painters will understand if that's what they decide to do. If left alone, they will become ghost murals sooner than we'd like. For the sponsors that put money up in the first place who helped make this possible, I feel that keeping the murals looking good is important especially in our small town.
Thank you all again for your valuable input!!
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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Honestly, I'm amazed that One-Shot stays in business with the constant proof coming forward that the product has become so poor. I always dislike seeing a good product become bad...especially when it happens on a large scale like your murals. They seem to be ignoring the problem, or simply can't fix it. I suppose the paints are all risky at this point, but I'm betting on the latex acrylic horse for the time being. Easy to clean, easy to use. If Dan does decide to make paint...I'll give it at least one shot. Ha!
-------------------- Doug Haffner Haffner Signs www.haffnersigns.com 309-338-9570 211 W. Williams Wyoming, Il 61491 Posts: 211 | From: Wyoming, Illinois | Registered: May 2010
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Kurt, A Few years ago I went to a Seminar Put on by Main Street USA. (National Historic Society) the reason your Paint is Bubbling on the Cinder block is because your Primer Sealed the block well and the blocks were fired to make them more impervious.
Now the good news and bad news about the Murals on the Soft un-fired red brick. The reason the paint is not blistering is, any moister trapped is behind the primer is going into the brick. That's good for the Mural Not good for the brick.
We had a "Mural Painter" out here for awhile and he ended up using the wrong sealer/primer and ended up ruining 4 buildings outer walls. He trapped so much moisture behind the paint that the bricks started scaling. It was the perfect storm. Already Bad Brick, then his moisture trap. Caused a lot of problems for the owners and Hysterical Society.
Old Soft Brick needs to breath, so Murals should be done on Panels on these types of Buildings and a 1"-2" Gap left between the Panel and the brick for evaporation.
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Also very interesting points Bill! Hysterical Society... that's a good one! I should point out that one of the murals we did on a panels here in the shop (not even sure what was used on the Buffalo Bill panel... Carol or Steve and Dawn?) but that one we used the UV clear on and it still looks great. They used lots of Smith's cream for blending I do recall that... but that one is hanging in there at least last time I looked!
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
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