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I've just wanted to throw this out there for a while. I posted this morning on another topic and didn't see any responses yet so I thought I'd start a new one.
I work at an Automotive Vocational College where we have a Custom Paint & Graphics program. It is only twelve weeks and is mostly a pinstriping and airbrush course witha week spent on applying vinyl and wraps. We have tossed around the idea of starting a Sign Making School here. I have another fellow who wrote the curriculum for the Sign Program at the Job Corps. He is now retired and interested in looking into this.
If we were to pursue this, I would appreciate input from all of you on the Bullboard on what kinds of things you would like to see us include in the program. I have a background as a hand lettering/carving sign painter who learned technology in the field, and have been the layout/vinyl cutter, commercial fabricator, installer and I run large format printers and CNC machines. The other gentleman is an electric sign fabricator who has some knowledge of the vinyl machines (cutters and printers)
Just looking for ideas-this could end up being a pool of talent for the industry as our students already come from all over the U.S.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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richard, as an old brush man, ive seen the plotter then the printer make a once viable career into a minimum wage job at best. the quality of the "new printer only people for the knowledge of "sign painter, carver, design & production of same" is not required and none of these people want to take time to learn before they own their own printer & call themselves SIGN MAKERS. when i had a shop, for short period of time i would get these kids come and ask if i was hiring a "graphic designer." to apply a title to your abilities without knowing what that is, can create problems. i would get a 11" X 17" legal pad and #2 lead pencil and hand it to them and say SHOW ME..........now i didnt ask for much, even a cartoon face woulda been a start. NOPE, next thing they say, "oh i cant draw i do all of my design work on the computer." then i would ask if they had any constrution abilities like READING A RULER, CUTTING A BOARD WITH A POWER SAW...without losing any digits....and they didnt know how to that either. but i will bet somewhere some how, they got a job spitin out helvetica bold text on a printer!!!!! learin pinstiping, painting today, is a great idea but would more for "self edification" more then a career learning project. heck even some prison are teaching "sign making". in a way they was teaching it years ago when inmates ......MADE LICENSE PLATES!!!!hehehehehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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The technology for doing most sign work is so far advanced using the computer and vinyl machines. It is the way of the future for sure. Teaching someone the intense process of lettering by hand is a true effort in futility for most young people today....kind of like learning how to make buggy whips. Most of us oldsters learned by working with others who had learned by doing it under someone else who learned the same way. When the vinyl cutters came in, everyone saw how much easier it was to do 2" helvetica on a door glass and parked their #4 quills. "What's a maul stick or pounce wheel?"
I think anyone who wants to try to better educate enthusiastic young people with how to make signs is doing a worthy pursuit and the future really is brighter than just the minimum wage prospects. Learning how to sell, draw, design and manufacture are all skills still very much needed. Go for it and if anyone asks you about a maul stick, show them the Atkinson book on lettering, especially the parts about how to mix up sign colors from powdered pigments and how to practise strokes. I bet they will stick to the computer.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brush skills are one of the things that can set people apart from the competition.
You could break up the ciriculum into 2 disciplines, automotive and sign. The auto could focus on refinish, airbrush, pinstriping, and hand lettering. The sign part could focus on things like routing, carving, software, and layout.
-------------------- Dan Beach Cylinder 9 Designs 1650 Glassboro Rd Sewell, NJ 08080 Posts: 625 | From: South Jersey | Registered: Sep 2008
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Teach a class on LETTERING QUILLS cause nobody knows any more what they are.A class on being firm on your prices once you learn the skill of lettering.Inform students they are 1 in 10 million that will be classified as "Real Sign Painters" once they master the brush.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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http://www.fas.ie go to training,scroll down to signwriting,Gerry Fitzgibbon is the instructor,and has a wealth of knowledge on this signwriting course. I should know,I was a pupil over twenty years ago.
quote:Originally posted by W. R. Pickett: Be sure to include classes on SIGN DESIGN and LAYOUT. Most sign makers these days have NO idea what 'effective' sign design is.
Amen! Add a course in contrast and readability also.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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A comprehensive course enabling your students to actually go out and get a job should include the basics of channel letters, wiring and LED's , as well as 3D routing. I regret I'm having to learn this stuff so late in the game.....
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:Be sure to include classes on SIGN DESIGN and LAYOUT. Most sign makers these days have NO idea what 'effective' sign design is.
Though this is a sweeping statement, it really is true. The greatest need among sign makers today is understanding layout and design. Even a degree in graphic arts is not a guarantee that a person is able to produce effective sign design. Often I think that instruction in graphic design today is more about teaching the use of software rather than learning design. It's sad that hand lettering is in decline, but the real tragedy would be if effective sign design were to become a thing of the past.
Mike Stevens said in 1983 that layout has been the most elusive skill of sign artists. If this was true then, how much more so is it true today when practically anyone with the ability to type can become a sign maker. And while it's important, essential, to learn design software–one of our important tools– knowing a program doesn't make a sign artist any more than a knowledge of how to use wire strippers and screwdrivers makes an electrician. Layout/design is truly the BIG LACK today.
Having said that, Sonny's suggestion that it would be good to learn a little about a variety of sign related skills sounds beneficial, though I know there is only so much time available in a class on sign making. Learning multiple skills, or at least being somewhat familiar with them, can even help a designer. I remember times, for example, when painting plastic faces, that I wished the designer could have spent a day with me becoming familiar with the process of masking and back-spraying plastic one color at a time. It's easy to double or even triple the hours necessary to process a plastic sign face by seemingly insignificant design changes. A designer's effectiveness can be greatly enhanced by a knowledge of the materials used and how things are built.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The single most important classes they can add to the sign school is Marketing and Economics.
One is to know how to create a market and a brand, the other is to know how to price the work according to proper economic business standards.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I agree with what Sonny said, most things sign related are in books, or can be googled, then its down to a will to learn, and practice.
There isn't that much info on Channel letters, and 3D signwork, no course is going to give students want they need to make a living in a short space of time, but equipping them with some of the basics for those with enough interest to learn more, relating to todays modern sign businesses would be a winner.
I wanted to just paint signs when I started out 20 years ago, but had to find a market to keep my business going, I love nostalgia, and some people are very successful, keeping old traditions alive.
You can make great looking signs using new technology.
I recently put some pictures on facebook, start to finish of making a channel letter sign with led that is about 33ft long.
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I am a Butera Grad and I heard recently that this is the last year for the sign program there. I am going to make a point to stop in there one last time before the building gets turned into dorm rooms or smething like that.
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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I heared that L.A. still has a sign school. Look up the Signpaintermovie. There is a link there I believe.
As far as a viable career I don't know.....However we are entering another "Artisian" era. There is quite a bit of interested people here in the wine country....
-------------------- chris depuy Pinstriping by Monk 1109 Cedar St. Dundee, Or Posts: 31 | From: Dayton, Oregon | Registered: Nov 2009
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Just to clarify, we are not looking to make a sign painting course as much as a sign making course. I am open to including hand lettering as a discipline to learn hand-eye coordination, how letters are made of basic strokes and for the occasional student who will master the craft and want to pursue it. I feel like we need to supplant the unions which are unfortunately dwindling, and help the industry have a pool of talent from which they can rely that have had training in many aspects of the trade. Wouldn't it be nice to have an opportunity as a student to be introduced to all aspects of the trade so that even if you want to be a designer, you have seen and participated in the manufacturing process to understand better what it is you are designing. If you want to be a metal fabricator, you have had experience in all aspects of the process, including cnc machining, running a vinyl plotter/printer, etc. Wouldn't that make for valuable potential employees?
If you include all aspects, you have an employee who can think on his or her feet and solve problems in the field, or in the shop with many skill sets. My experience with cnc or computer generated signs as a whole is that it is nice to be able to fix a carved piece that has been slightly damaged from a malfunction (losing a bit, etc.) rather than throwing away a potentially expensive piece of material or something special ordered such as a 5x10 panel.
Thanks for all the comments,
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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Here are my thoughts, anyone can make a sign you see them all the time. Its the design factor that will make you or break you. I call it the WOW factor when someone would walk through my door sit down and I would show them a proof, and they say WOW. I did that for years but WOW it seems, doesn't matter much anymore when you have 2 shops down the street with no training and little respect to the craft they will sell signs that look like the rest for a third of the price. You have to have a niche something no one else can do better than you. The next issue is teaching students to teach the customer value. The most important thing for a business is new business, pulling that new business in off the street. You are selling a face to that company, the first thing a customer sees before they decide to walk into your business or when that Company Van or Truck rolls by. All in all it comes down to design, if that customer only has a budget for black and white sell em the best looking black or white sign in the city. Because if he grows you'll grow.
-------------------- Jonathan Harvey Harvey's Signs and Designs 214 N. Main Newton,KS 67114 316-283-2424 (no telemarketers) Posts: 63 | From: Newton, KS | Registered: May 2006
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Doc Guthrie is doing a great job at LA Tech School. I met him and some of his students last year near LA. He might have some good insight as well. I think they use my books as part of the curriculum to help teach some layout and design concepts.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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