posted
All I have to say about the pricing wars is people are not pricing in the VALUE of their signs.
It's getting worse around here now. Kids are all over the net ordering digitally printed everything for pennies on the square foot and selling it out of their dorm rooms for $20 markup or whatever low-ball figure they can come up with to entice their design-challenged clients with. (and some of the dorm room layouts are actually pretty good.)
These kids have not had the benefit of seeing where this is going to land them. They think they can sell 5 jobs and make $100 and that will get them a future and money down for their dream house. Boy do I feel sorry for them.
As for pricing in the value: I made a small pile of stickers the other day for $340.Very nice markup. Then .... I Priced a VERY, VERY large window, over 20' long, 2 colors, for $350 (only offered it this cheap because of a trade one of the owners had made with me awhile back), but the other owner has to consult with his dorm-room signshop. Oh, boy. I'm not griping or complaining. Just laughing. This is why I'm moving my business in another direction because I can clearly see the writing is on the wall!!! But pricing a sign without factoring in its value is a no-win situation.
When these dorm-room signmakers have to move out of that dorm-room and open a real shop, they'll see what I mean. They'll see what we all know. Even those of us who didn't go to college.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I threw in the towel in regards to the sign business years ago. If I get undercut on a striping job at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that whoever is doing the undercutting has at least paid his or her dues. With striping I can also alter the style I'm working with to accommodate the price conscious. Doing one style might take me an hour, doing one "down and dirty" might only take twenty minutes. Only the truly discriminating can tell the difference. In regards to signs, I have found over the years that most everyday folks don't have a clue in regards to design. If the letters are properly formed is really all they can see. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
Hopefully after my twenty plus years, I'm a little wiser and can figure out how to shift things in another direction. Surely we're not all so stupid as we can't figure out how to combat this pricing idiocy!!! Our wisdom counts for something. Yes? Of course it does. But is it enought to help us concoct some practical alternative strategy to make a change in the way we do business and somehow win this pricing war???
I hope so.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
“Whatever there be of progress in life comes not through adaptation but through daring...” Henry Miller
Mix things up, take some risks and reinvent yourself where needed. I spent years working in average (and some below average) sign shops and found no fulfillment in it. I started our business in 2005 and refused to work on anything that didn't excite me (and nearly starved in the beginning, now I just occasionally starve) but I love making signs again. Sign makers are a creative bunch, although I have crossed paths with a few shop owners that got into it only as a business investment and couldn't care less about the work they produce. If you got started in the craft as a craft, then go back to what got you excited in the first place. For me that meant going back to hand painted work. Give your customers something that you yourself are excited about and your business will grow. Churn out generic stuff that anyone with a bookmark to signs365.com can do and your business will shrink.
posted
An interesting discussion - however, the one thing that puzzles me - exactly how do you arrive at the value of sign (over and above the material/production costs) when figuring out pricing?
-------------------- Graham Parsons Signs 'n Such Ltd Swift Current Saskatchewan Canada. www.signsnsuch.com
"Saskatchewan - hard to pronounce, easy to draw" Posts: 710 | From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
all signs are worth $1 million ... then work your way down from there ....
(hey, it's better than building a sign with $600 worth of material in and then tacking $20 on it for yer profit!!!)
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
graham, i have seen this question asked many times and have seen over the years the DECLINE of value for quality sign work. i went full time signmaking when i was 41-42. was 1986, just as the vinyl machines were coming into the market. i feel i did really well, PAINTING only till 1992, when everybody and their brother had a vinyl cutter(i also bought one then) and was THEN, KILLING the profit and design of a nice sign. at the time i was getting $150-200 for set of painted truck doors, $100 for 12" x 24 set of mags, 4 x 8 single sided on MDO $400. then the vinyl cutters CUT those prices, for whatever reason and they were spending more money for equipment and vinyl & making LESS PROFIT, then i was getting with paint only. never made sense to me. VINYL set of truck doors $50-75, set of mags became $40, 4 x 8's for $200. and since the advent of the printers.....THEY HAVE taken all of these to new lows JUST TO KEEP THEIR PRINTER running so it wont plug up!!!!! my banner work is none!!! i got printers here selling them at $2-3 sq ft to the public. in 1986 i lived in sarasota fl., was a good sized city and had no more the 10 SIGN PAINTERS. when i moved in 1998 the yellow pages had close to 100 sign makers!!!! the vinyl work i do today, i try to stay @ $5 sq ft or better, never less. i do more paint now and most times there is no prive haggling because not many do paint now and those who want paint are willing to pay.
[ November 03, 2011, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Graham, What Si says is pretty much on the mark.
For me, the main key in getting what you're worth is "credibility". The more credible you are the easier it is to get your price.
How you accomplish it will vary from client to client. Professionalism. Samples of your work. Being recognized by a trade magazine. All of these are just tools to help you get to where you want to be.
Some will blame prices on technology. Nonsense.
I hand-letter. I print and cut vinyl. I gold leaf. I carve, route and sandblast. The tools I use to accomplish the job have no bearing on the prices I get. What does matter IMHO are Design, Service and a little Business Sense.
posted
Sean Star is right on get back to basics and enjoy your efforts along with Glenn Taylor
I've changed my attitude and it seems to be working well, I'm getting more work and looking for new ways, 95% of my work is done by hand, my prices are increasing on a steady basis.
posted
I only have one client. They have a few Casino's, nuf said...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Its tough, it's rough, it baffles me! You cant make money in this town withut some clown undercutting and then someone will undercut him. I let them have it all! and again and again.
All of us over here are battling one company on everything. This joker will get and bid on everything coming into this city. Doesnt matter if you get to bid on it eventually he will undercut.
From fabricated monuments down to a damn yard sign. One of my freinds was having a channel sign built and installed and I bid her. She said that same company underbid. I told her politely I would back out of this bid as that last quote he gave did not allow profit. I turned in ONE MORE bid to her so damn cheap it was horrific. To my suprise he didnt underbid but he would match it ABSOLUTE IDIOT! It was about $4000 channel job and he did it for $2500 this is no lie!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Technology plays a big part in the problem in that it enables it. There have always been price cutters. The Joe Winos were around probably from the beginning. It took an effort, though, to even become one of them. Their numbers weren't great enough to cause too may serious problems. Technology has made it effortless for peple with absolutely no background in the business to get in and in great numbers. It's these great numbers that are causing the problem. If it wasn't easy, you wouldn't have the hordes of price cutters. Technology enables the hordes. Whether it can be blamed is open for lenghthy debate, that it is part of the problem is not.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Although technology is much more affordable and prevalent these days, the old-timers will attest that always there many "snappers" who underbid jobs back before computers (BC).
We have discussed how to place a value on a sign many years ago and that topic, I assume, is still in the archives somewhere. However, here are some things to consider...
Newspaper advertising can run a couple of hundred dollars and the ad will only be around for a day or 2.
A small display ad in the phone book can run several hundred dollars a month.
A direct mail campaign or TV advertising can run thousands of dollars.
And, here in Harrisburg, a billboard rental starts at $4,000 for a (minimum) 1 month rental.
So, to make a long story short, signs are (outdoor) advertising and should be valued as such. And when compared to a billboard, a sign of similar size and exposure could be valued at nearly $250,000 assuming it will last for 5 years.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
What about Fast Signs & Sign-A-Rama franchises? They are numbers oriented buinesses that constantly under bid jobs because they hire low-cost employees with little to no experience.
We have done quite a bit of CNC work for a neighboring state's Sign-A-Rama. It's funny when they send over a design...how poorly constructed. We have a chuckle over the streched borders and all of the Brush Script. A design fee is built in for their signs within the cost & we send them a new .jpg rendering. We give 'em 10% trade discount and somehow they are able to still sell the job. Yea, we loose 10%, but it is worth avoiding some of the headache of sales.
Don't get me wrong, I still hate the fact that they steal some of our business. But a few adaptations will get us through their underbidding and ultimately failing business. For us it has been creating a niche for which our competitors need our resources. Routing HDU, Dibond & PVC has proven to be a great avenue for added income.
Service is definately one of our focuses. We build relationships by meeting & educating our clients. When we get undercut on a bid later down the line, our reputation of quality and service is already established. We WIN!
-------------------- Keith Jenicek Artisan Signs St. Louis, MO
It's amazing just how much even the best of us UNDER-value a sign when you look at his line of reasoning.
I can't even sell a 4x8 one color Dibond sign anymore. When I tell someone $420, they fall over. Some "snapper" can order some digitally printed vinyl, stick it on a piece of .040 purchased from the local metal shop and have a decent sign assembled in their bedroom for under $200. The markup is theirs to make the call on, and as long as it is under $420, the customer will run with it.
No amount of anything mentioned above is going to change most customer's mind. Especially if they beat me by $100 or more.
Checkers is right. It's an issue of the builder not placing a value on his sign. And this is happening in all other businesses too. Look at all of the heating and air guys running around, and one-man electrician businesses and garage door installers.
People out of work will do what they have to do to make money, including leaving money on the table, i.e., undervaluing their work, to put a few bucks in their pocket. And the crappier the economy, well ... you know the rest.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with George Perkins in many ways yet I drink wine and my name is Joe and I have been a snapper all my life so to speak and never cut prices as my prices have been higher than most pinstripers in many applications right up until I retired. I spoke about my trade many times here over the years and have seen little change except for those who believe they have the knowledge to do what I've done for almost sixty years. In those years I rarely lost a job as my thing is doing straight lines by hand and not many can do that perfectly and in the correct space. I've always done complimentary work and as perfect as one can see as I can see the difference in what it is that you do, some call me egotistical but I prefer experienced and as an experienced person in this art I also see the difference in qualities, knowledge and talent. Pinstriping is something that one must feel for color, design and knowledge of automobiles and this is why many do signage. Your industry has evolved and you either get with the picture and get left wanting..
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I have to laugh when I hear lamentations about the 'hoards of people that have bought vinyl cutters and are using them to steal THEIR vinyl-cutter business... by selling it cheaper than they can.
It's apparently 'ok' when 'THEY' bought a vinyl cutter, but it's not for the guy down the street. LOL
If the competition scares you... you need to find something else to do.
Personally, I don't want the tire-kickers and cheapskates. Let the goons willing to make vinyl signs for nothing work themselves to a frazzle for no reward. I'll gladly take the customers who value better design and a quality product.
After that... like George and some of the others said - you need to get creative and find additional niche areas to spread into to fill the gaps. Tailor the method of production to maximize profits. Roll with the changes - or get rolled over.
Regarding banners - I think it was OP complaining about that. Why would you EVER make your own banner today, anyway?! I could print my own, but it doesn't pay. I can sit on my butt, design a banner and send the file out to a mega-printer like Signs365, get it the next day and mark it up without any of the hassles of in-house production. I'd do it all day that way if I could. Take advantage of their buying power and volume efficiencies.
posted
well now that digital has graced our lives...ya need to compare apples to apples. If you are still cutting, weeding, masking and applying vinyl and painting backgrounds, then hell no you can't compete with someone with digital. it doesn't look any better than digital and it sure isn't going to last longer. roll with the changes or starve. I sell by the square foot with their file...if I have to create file then the price goes up. But I'm making more money with digital than I was making stocking every color of vinyl, and doing all that work that I don't have to do now. Design, print, laminate..peel & stick on substrate..don't even need to measure(love that!) It's all about customer service at this point...and if you are good and dependable you will be busy.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've had a lot of different kinds of jobs, jobs I enjoyed and made decent money at. Hardly any of them are any good now. That's just the way the world is going. The last time I had to start over, I was 57, and didnt know what to do. I got a job as a cab driver and it turned out to be about the best job I'd ever had. I was a natural-born taxi cowboy and made good money. But it was only good for about ten years when City Hall started interfering and ruined it, just like they're doing all over the country. I heard they're hard up for truck drivers and other workers in N. Dakota because of the oil boom going on there.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic