posted
In order to reproduce a project for a client, I needed to purchase some fonts. They were billed for the purchase. Now I am afraid that they will want the fonts, since they feel they "own" them. However, the license is only for my computers at my location. I have explained how font licenses and purchases work and they feel that is all nonsense (that everyone who wants to use a font has to buy it.) Had the originators of the artwork provided all the logos etc as outlines, I would not have had to purchase the fonts. I had discussed the font purchase with the client and they signed off on the purchase, but now feel that the $199 for font purchase gives them ownership of those fonts. Thoughts?
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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I never really thought about it, as most clients never ask for the font files when I'm required to purchase them.
Does this mean they also own the rest of the vinyl that is on the roll when the job is done? Or half a can of paint? OR even better, all the stuff you throw in the trash? Will they come and haul it away for you?
From my perspective, YOU bought them and got the license in YOUR name. A multi-user license might have given them claim to the fonts. What a dilemma.
Here's a thought, too. You didn't UPCHARGE for the fonts, so you didn't SELL them the fonts. You bought supplies to do the job and one of the purchases on the supply list was fonts. The fonts have been "consumed" and that's pretty much it (in a manner of speak, since they actually still do "exist")
I can see their point, but the purchase should have been ON THEIR TIME, in their name if they wanted them. They should have bought them, made sure they did everything right, and then brought the font files to you strictly to be used on their jobs nd their jobsalone.
crazy, man ... just crazy
it's definitely something to think about
as far as font licenses being "nonsense," well, that's just another degree of degradation we font designers feel every day ... I'm just glad you were a honest font user!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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I would feel that they did pay for them and they should have the use of them since they did pay for them.
It might be possible to get the licence transferred to them.
I have a similar situation at the moment where the graphic handling agents for a brewery can't supply the fonts for one of their brands except as a Mac font so they say I have to buy the font and there are three different weights.
now without the promise of future work I have to spent about $100. I don't know about that. But it's something I'll have to give thought to if I want their work. but once I buy them I will use them for anything I please but if they supply them, then they will be only used for their stuff.
-------------------- Miles Cullinane, Cork, Ireland.
From the sometimes sunny south of Ireland, Posts: 913 | From: Cork, Ireland | Registered: Jul 1999
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should have these things worked out beforehand ...
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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I occasionally have to buy a font to fabricate a customer's sign. I bill them for it and provide them a vector form of their graphic if needed and figure having the font on hand is my "tip" for the job. Although it hasn't happened yet, if the customer made a big deal out of it, I'd sign over the rights to that font to him and delete it from my system. He did pay for it.
However, a couple years ago a customer wanted the font I'd used to design his sign. It was one I had purchased years before from a vendor who has a reputation for clamping onto any perceived piracy like a hound dog on a hamburger. I refused, and the customer got mad... but he was kind of a jerk anyway.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's nothing but semantics. You bought the font, right? So itemize it as an expense for the job just like all the other misc expenses and include it as part of the total price for the job to the client.
Like Michael says, it's the same as a new roll of material of a special color needed for the job.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Michael, they actually asked me for the rest of the roll of vinyl!!! I used 170 sq ft of 3M Comply and they wanted the rest of the roll!!! I told them that it is stock material, so they weren't charged full rolls of materials except on the specialty holographic films.
The worst part was that I told them before hand that I would have to purchase these fonts, that they would be paying for the purchase of them, and that I would maintain them on my computer for future work. They agreed.
The issue is how Dennis states it..."an expense for the job" which is how it was itemized on their bill (which they requested every vinyl, design, labor etc to be itemized). They got charged for it, but how do I have them understand that the LHF fonts I purchased, will still have some sort of "tracker" on them (I fear) if I transfer the license to them? And once they share the fonts with everyone else and LHF comes after them for that, I don't want have ever been involved.
Had the other sign company just converted everything to outlines, this would not have been an issue.
I will gladly give them all the vector files for another project or typeset what they need done.
How does someone go about transferring a font license (if it comes down to that....)?
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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That is why I never use itemized bills, why does a customer need to know how much they paid for each item? the only reason is so they can go down thru the bill and jew you down on stuff.
They order a sign, or have me decorate a vehicle or trailer, I tell them the cost, and they pay. If I have to order a new font to do it. It is figured in, I order it and use and it is mine, same goes for clipart, stock photography, or anything else.
posted
They actually wanted the vinyl? I was just kidding about the vinyl, but it figures!!!
And if there was a font purchase agreement you guys had, then the point is moot.
As for the whole font licensing thing ... when customers approach me with an issue such as this, I'm so easy-going it's ridiculous. To ease their mind I usually give them my blessing on situations such as yours. I had to do it once for a sign shop when their customer needed one of my font paks off of myfonts. I settled it all with a simple, "no problem!" I think I even emailed the fonts to the disgruntled party, even though they'd never actually paid for them. Everyone got their fonts and walked away happy.
This anal attitude by font designers over who has their fonts and who doesn't and who paid and who didn't simply isn't worth it.
That's why I give away so many fonts. It's hard to pirate a freebie!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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How many more signs will you make for them..?
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Unfortunately, Jack, I don't know. This gentleman owns 12 local businesses, owns many IMCA race teams here in WI and sponsored the Busch boys for 6 races last year...so I don't want to burn bridges. It just sucks that his office manager is being so nit picky about the job and paying the invoice. I have talked with the owner many times and he isn't the one with all these issues. It is his office woman (i think she is one of his ex wives, not sure on that, but considering every time he gets divorced, he sets up his ex wives with a business or two...)
We shall see what next week brings!
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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you bid to do the job. You didn't bid to give them materials.
Its just like a gardener laying sod. They bid the yard. Any extra sod is not client sod. It goes the gardener.
You bid to do a job and you supply the completed product. Any extra materials in your place are yours. I am positive you didn't make a quote that says they get teh extra materials.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Unless you said clearly that they were paying for the fonts, you are the owner. But you also state that you billed them for them. Is it a line item? If so, that could be trouble.
It also sounds like they are scared of the same thing happening again. Having a production company not having the proper files so a font purchase is needed again to complete the job. Try to assure them that your vector and raster files will be all they need to reproduce their logo on any promotional or identity products.
I think Mike nailed it, though. If a mechanic needs a special tool to complete your job, it is absorbed into the cost an becomes another asset for the auto company to use.
-------------------- Keith Jenicek Artisan Signs St. Louis, MO
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I had a customer who wanted to know the cost of each material I used on her sign. When I explained it doesn't work that way, she got mad and said it was her right to know. I asked her if she ordered a pizza, would she inquire how much the cheese, tomato sauce, dough, and the box cost? She finally shut up.....
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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In the future they less they know about what you ordered the better. as far as the fonts burn them a copy and save it as a cdr or ai file and give that to them and tell them they have to have illustrator or corel draw to use them
see problem handled!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I gotta sk what fonts did you pruchase anyway? if thats ok to ask
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
bruce, you actually make a fair point, give them a CD with an AI or EPS of the lettering. You aren't breaking copyright, are you? and yet you have given the font.
Now if they want to buy a font designing program and convert the letters of the EPS into a font, that is their choice. (Not Likely!)
Chances are, if they Get a CD, they will never open it and try and use that font.
-------------------- Miles Cullinane, Cork, Ireland.
From the sometimes sunny south of Ireland, Posts: 913 | From: Cork, Ireland | Registered: Jul 1999
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If they paid for it, why not reimburse them the cost of the font, but deduct for the time it took you to download/purchase/acquire it. That way, if they want it, they can download it from the font vendor themselves. You keep the font on your computer and get paid for your time, the vendor gets paid for another license, and the client gets their font.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Thanks,all. Wayne you must have been reading my mind last night! I think I will just deduct the $199 from the bill. That way, like you said, if they really want those fonts, they can go to LHF and buy them themselves.
Miles, I thought of that idea, but really don't want to loose the possibilty of future work. This guy knows some pretty heavy hitters here in town. And doing something like that would be similar to what happened to me. The worst part, is that this client was a referral from one of our best friends. I even had a discussion with the owner about any conflict with our friend and for him not to get caught in the middle. He assured me that wasn't the way he does business, and from talking to other people who know him and his employees, they are a bit shocked that the office lady is questioning anything.
They wanted an itemized bill b/c my price to do the work (show quality with HP materials vs stuck on with econo materials) was 3x higher than what they usually pay for this work. But it was a rush job as well. I have never had to design, print and wrap a car in less than 24 hours time.
Bruce, they were Letterhead fonts: Gone Fishin, Happy Ball, Big Dog, Anna Banana, and Alpine Script.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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LHF does not allow transfers of fonts.. In fact they do some strange stuff if you send out a font. It is embedded with your personal info. If that font goes out to the wild and someone else lets it get onto a down load site they get real nasty.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I like LHF and the only little problem I have with them is that their fonts are only available in one file format which is not compatible with my main sign program. So if I need to the use LHF fonts in SignWizard, I have to first access them in CorelDraw, convert to curves and export as EPS. It's just a little cumbersomne to have to do that.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Wow Nikki, sounds like a real beeotch. So if you even could transfer the fonts to her computer, how would she expect you do do any future work for them? Letterhead Fonts aren't like the office stapler. You can't send them back and forth as needed.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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How much are you charging the client for all these extra chores, transferring licenses, etc., plus the time on Letterville researching the legalities? Sounds like lawyer's time to me.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Dennis, the project was $3900, so if it comes down to it, I'd probably just refund them $200...$1 for my time!!
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Here's a thought, .... give them the option to buy the font for an added cost (the actual font cost) above just the design fee (which should include your initial font purchase). Buy an additional set of that font in their name too. This way they know they have the option to have ownership of their font for other things too.
The way I see it is that a font is not a design... it's the tool to create the design. It's the letters of the logo or whatever you created with it. They do not get the whole alphabet unless you charge them more for it.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I wanna know why the original artist would not offer the art in outlines and avoid all this crap to begin with. In future if the original art dude does'nt give you what you need tell the owners it will be an extra $$$$ to do art, i bet that will get things going!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
I wanna know why the original artist would not offer the art in outlines and avoid all this crap to begin with.
After reading about the crap the office witch is dishing out? Sounds like they wanted nothing more to do with her. I don't often feel compelled to help out people that act like that.
Cripes... just give back the money. You keep the fonts. What a twit. She should get fired but she won't. Sheesh.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Bruce, that was the original conversation. The other shop charged the client $1000 to send me what they felt like sending, the rest I had to re-create, after getting a sign-off from the owner to do so.
Hopefully she doesn't call this week. She was going to have a meeting with the owner to discuss the matter. He is a super fair guy and probably has no clue what she does when she talks to vendors. I think she does most of the negotiating on purchases as well, so she is probably just trying to figure out what the owner and I negotiated (to make sure it is fair). We shall see what this week brings..
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Its the power - she has the power. Sometimes I find the little people in the office are ten times harder to work with than anyone. I think I just lost a large client because they hired a new office manager who though she should design all their stuff, after I have been doing it since 1995. Needless to say her constructive criticism was not welcomed by me with open arms.
As far as the the font, I think they deserve to have any and all type pieces you have converted to curves and welded. But not the font itself. The font is a tool. I do not charge my clients for my tools. Threfore I would give them their money back for the font. If they want to buy the font they should FIND it on the web and buy it themselves. And i would not tell them where to find it.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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Actually Deri, I usually don't charge for fonts because I see them the way you do too, but some of these were so dog-butt ridiculous that I would never use them again on any conceivable project. And since it was more reasonable to purchase the package vs individual ones, I did.
So far I haven't heard from them this week, so maybe they just decided to drop it.
I had another client earlier this year ask for the font on their logo (another LHF font) so that the guy they were going to have letter their pickup truck (in vinyl) could cut it.
They had purchased a JPEG file of their logo and gave it to someone to hand paint their box truck, (so by this time I was getting a bit peeved with them.)
They did not want to purchase the vector files, nor did they ask me to letter the truck. I explained how the font purchase worked, sent them a link to LHF with the price and figured the "vinyl guy" would just purchase the font so that everything would be consistent.
I saw the pickup in a parade....no LHF Marie Script anywhere, but INSTEAD, everyone's "favorite"...BRUSH SCRIPT!!!
Sometimes it just isn't worth fighting over.
The worst part, is that I had virtually fired this client (in my head), filed their company away in my DEAD files, only to see the owner in my Zumba class, 5 days out of the week.
I love Zumba more than I love my pride, so I sucked it up, told them I saw the trucks and that they looked "great" and the owner has no clue at all that she did anything offensive to me.
Maybe it is just women......I hate working with women.....they are 99.5% of the time the thorn in my side.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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I woulda said something and let her quit going to the workout.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curtis, i wish it was that easy....her best friend is the instructor and they are joined at the hip. Kind of crazy for two 50 year old women.... :)AND she shows up at every class the Y offers for Zumba, so she is on one side of the room & I on the other.
Janette, I never had this happen before to this extreme (just like in rescue..'this was the first time...(whatever happened)). Nothing surprises me anymore...not loosing any sleep over it.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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