posted
after a dead summer, I'm being over-run by bargain seekers and people playing the pricing game.
That's okay with me. I'll get one or two of them. Sadly, the prices I'm seeing are in-the-dirt low. I may lose all of these because I just tried to pad the jobs with an extra 50 here and there.
It hurts to lose a job because you'd like to make enough to actually pay yourself and not just the electric and mortgage.
Things are really tough out there. Some of it just stupid. Got a contractor doing a huge motel who is trying to save money by coating out his own 4x8. A sheet of dibond is only $75 or so. What the heck?
oh, well ... I'll take the ones I can get, but I'll confess right now, some of the prices I've quoted are downright embarrassing to the profession. And I probably won't even get them.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I too have had a few price quotes that have gone out. But never/haven't heard back from yet. Last week while at the local yard waste recycling plant, a guy aked about doing his new van. The last guy who did his van charged $300.00. He said 'It had lots of colors too". But unforturnatly that signguy is no longer in business. Gee, I wonder why. I wanted to tell him, "I did a van, it had two colors, $650.00" But I just smiled and gave him a card. He asked for a quote, but I told him I never give a quote without knowing exactly what the job was going to be. I learned my lesson about that.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
In late June, in one day I had requests for quotes on loads of work from several long time customers. I jumped on the pricing but I didn't get a single one of the jobs because I was completely blown out of the tub on all of them. One told me if I dropped my price 10% he'd sign the contract. I did, and then he counter offered with less than half of that. I didn't take him up on it. Costs are up, pricing is down, and there's no loyalty whatsoever.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Alicia B. Jennings: He asked for a quote, but I told him I never give a quote without knowing exactly what the job was going to be. I learned my lesson about that.
Don't you just love the ones who show you their business card and say how much for a sign. ..... Loafed bread is in aisle 4 and averages $2.00
My motto these days for those types is not to politely ask for more specifics but something like this:
"It's impossible for me to price something before I even know what your needs are. Lets discuss some specifics and THEN I can figure out a price for you."
If that price doesn't fit into their budget I tell them they'll need to lower their expectations and we'll make something effective within their budget.
posted
I should have mentioned that I did land one job at exactly the right price. It's making my day.
The ones I priced low I really would just rather not even do them. It would be better for my financial situation if I get them, but I hope they find someone else, because this crazy pricing game I find myself in is a HORRIBLE business model.
This is NOT the way to run a business.
btw -- looks like I just "lost" a 4x10, MAX COVERAGE SINGLE LAYER VINYL, double-sided aluma-core job to the competition.
My quoted price?
READY FOR THIS???
$525.00 (embarassing, I know)
I'm praying he doesn't call me back today. This is just stupidity on my part for even telling him that. siggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hear you, Don. Luckily, I think I'm off the hook for this momentary lapse in judgment!!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Orlando has been the King of lowering the price since 1985 when PCs / Cutters hit the market running prices kept falling. Now that everybody wants and gets a printer they dropped even more and are having a hard time paying for them.
So now we got sign shops charging a fair amount with less work making some or little profit plus those shops that lower the price that don't and can't do the quality work the better shops did but have created a mess for those who want to make a living.
Customer here I've been doing business with very happy with work and service, same price for same signs for the last 2 years ( human directional ) 4x4s only $75 per side now another shop says they will do 2 of them for that price. only reason I was doing them in the 1st place was every 3 mths even the repaint was $75 per side. Cleaned, repainted, cleared, 1 hour done. Told him I'm lowering my prices and new customers are paying more. I tell my customers new customers are paying more cause my cost have gone up and they have.
Mechanics labor is billed by using hand wrenches and one mechanic, this is how there pricing is structured when they got air tools they did not lower the price cause they did it faster.
Remember in Signcraft back in the early 80s they felt prices would increase because now we could have perfect lettering and faster.
posted
Seems to be the standard all around the country.
Just today I received an email from a long time customer - a large construction company. I've been doing work for them for over ten years and they make up about 40% of my total yearly income. Have done everything from vehicles, site signs, hard hats, office signs, etc. Naturally, they call and want it done the next day but most of the time they work within my schedule. On pickups I normally can work one in just about anytime - 45 minutes (all vinyl) and it's $350.
All of the logos, layouts, etc are in the computer and it's easy to turn out safety and project signs without a lot of trouble.
Until today. Now I'm getting emails from three or four "suits" that state they are needing three estimates and a scaled, full color rendering of a 4' x 6' Corps of Engineers Safety Sign that I've been doing for over 40 years. Have all the measurement engrained in my brain...but they want to know if I'm familiar with the requirement.
The person that I normally deal with has just about thrown up his hands in disgust.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gross is all a state of mind! I painted a windshield years ago on a program car Lincoln. The guy wanted $20,595 on it. I painted $25,595 and he sold it before I left. He told me I could come back and paint his windshields anytime I wanted to do so. Still do. He had owned the car for 11 months and it was priced too suspiciously low. We get in a mind set that being the low price leader is the only way to compete when in fact it is our creativity that we sell and measuring that is a rather vague trick for most buyers of our services.
Rarely does someone ask me the price. I focus on when they want it done, instead and generally they want it now. It is a subtle point, but works as it gets them off of the one issue that is most relevant to them. They want me to focus on the cure, not the medicine.
If pressed, I give them a range and tell them it will depend on how much design time I need to put in before we begin. If someone gets pushy with the price, they pay the high side. If they are easy to deal with and have paid their bills on time before, they get the low side. Hate to sound so egalitarian about it, but it works. If they are a late payer, guess what?
"My God, you are more expensive per hour than my attorney!" "Look in the phone book and see how many attorneys there are, compared to how few window painters. Duh"
The key, I have found is to remain a bit aloof and to give them fabulous service. Even if all you sell is vinyl from an old Gerber 4B, they are still paying for your talent, not your commodity.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
That reminded me of a car dealer that I letter walls for.
After giving him a price one day he said,"Damn, everytime you give me a price it scares the bejeebers out of me, but for some reason I keep calling you."
I said,"I know what you mean. I could buy a KIA with all the bells and whistles for a LOT LESS, but for some reason I keep coming back for Buicks."
He smiled and said,"When can you get stated?"
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2274 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
On the way home tonite, I drove pass one of the guys that didn't call me back. he got someone else to do his signs. I saw him getting into his van. I wanted to honk my horn and flip em off as I drove by. But I didn't.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
I spent an hour on the phone with a lady from a church I've been doing banners for 20 years - suggesting layouts, helping with the copy writing, etc. She gave me the go-ahead on 4 banners - fairly standard stuff, but she wanted it quick (of course)
15 minutes later, her assistant called and said they checked the VistaPrint site and they could get the banners in 2 days for much less than my price.
L O N G P A U S E
I said, sorry, but I can't touch that price. And there went 20 years of a formerly wonderful relationship. I gave them good design, good service, and good prices FOR 20 YEARS!
I try to look on the bright side of things, but the rules have changed out there.......
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I need to put alicia in charge of customer relations
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
we are all the same, we go thru the same crap and put up with the same stuff everyday. We all drop our prices when times are lean and nothing wrong with that. Dropping prices is alot different than eating a job. We got 2 sign compnaies in our town that will do a damn job for the cost of materials. One is large and 1 is a one man shop. I keep bidding against them and they keep getting the jobs it amazes me.
I also firmly believe we are headed for round 2 of this recession for the final cleaning and its going to be one hell of a cleaning! We all need to try and save every penny we make from this point on cause its going to be rougher than the first
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Craig, I couldn't agree more with you! The only difference was it took until 88 or so for the plotters to fall into the wrong hands and for the price wars to begin. Your comment on the air wrenches pretty well sums up how I feel about plotters and printers. I'm not bothered in the least by the most recent round of price cutting as the first round in 88 pretty well ran me out of the sign business. I am so glad I learned to pinstripe along the way. Oh, I run into stripers cutting prices every now and then at a rally but it's almost never a problem and if it is, it's pretty easy to deal with.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
It's been a long race to the bottom and, these days, the downhill ride seems to be picking up a lot of steam.
I've thought of getting out of the business many times. But, the good jobs are scarce. So, with help from the part-time job, something seems to pop up at the right time to keep me from leaving.
I've come to the conclusion I may not get rich in this business, but I still can't imagine doing anything else.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
bruce makes a good point that there is a difference between "eating" the job and lowering your price.
I can still make money if I lower my prices, but it is a poor way to run a business. Still, it is better than being "out" of business.
To be honest, if I didn't own my house and my shop, or if I had to drive to work every day, even I owned the place I was driving to, I couldn't make it by lowering the prices the way I have been lately. I am very, very fortunate to be in the situation I'm in.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I feel for you..it's like being stomped on the ground, as we really don't get enough when our prices are "high"; still we throw in all the years of quality experience.
When I was more active with signs for years, sometimes I would throw an extra element of a sign to add to the price, kind of like an overrun in printing, but strategy came to mind when I knew I had bills to pay..so, sometimes I would add another set of signs for the pricey rate but they would get more value and the signs were of the same layout and with extra left over material or not too much labor and time to do, a win win situation.
Some people thought that was great as their biz would be advertised more places and it just seemed to be fair to get the job and put in a pinch more work, sell myself on quality, and then get to the bank with that deposit right away!
It's always a good pay when the customer is happy and feels they got a deal.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
False, this business can be very lucrative. Rich? I doubt you will be on the cover on Fortune or INC but it can be rewarding.
If we could all keep the idiots out of this business we would be alot better off
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I figured you guy people would get a kick out of my comment Actually, yes, being self-employed and running a sign business is very rewarding in many ways. And yes, there is still good money to be made. However, those jobs have become fewer and further apart. So, I do not expect it to make me millions of dollars before I retire. I could live with that though
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
The jobs I get are not from price shoppers. If ten folks come up my drive, looking for a sign, nine will drive away without one. That is OK. They weren't my customer. The one who stays IS my customer and gladly pays for what I do. What I do is impossible to find anywhere else. These folks are smart enough to give me creative freedom, to allow me to do what I do best. They get EXCELLENT value, but no bargains. I have no competition.
The key is to do what no one else can. Why place yourself in a market that will keep you poor?
It is not difficult. My crew is university students with little training. The key is to use our talents and creativity to the absolute maximum possible. It is much more fun than working!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
People are strange. Here the average body shop charges $45/hr for labor + $30/hr for supplies. I was charging $80/hr for airbrushing including supplies. Majority of people here cringe at hearing $80/hr... so I did like the body shops do... $50/hr airbrushing/pinstriping + $30/hr for supplies. You would be amazed at how many more jobs I've landed since I changed the pricing structure.
But to your point, people are broke and the people who have money are not spending any and holding on to what they have.
-------------------- Kelsey Dum Dum Designs Sherwood, AR 72120 501.765.2166 kelsey@dumdesigns.com Posts: 827 | From: Sherwood, AR | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
to quote dan: "Why place yourself in a market that will keep you poor?"
EXACTLY ..... and this thread isn't really a complaint session on my part. It's just that I'm becoming aware of how bad the situation/market is and I am preparing to move in some different directions. It's either that or fight the battle differently.
Still, just for fun ....
TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS WEEK'S PRICING:
Lost 1 4x8 jobsite sign ... reason: $400 is more than they wanted to spend, despite the fact they are developing a million dollar plus hotel and retail center.....
Lost a church sign that I priced really cheap because I don't feel like making a big profit on local churches, esp. small ones ... they probably found someone to go even cheaper, so I'm okay if they go with someone else.
Still waiting on word on two 10 x 14 lighted panels, max coverage, all high performance everything @ $2750 for both panels ... (because of the labor involved in sticking and cutting all that vinyl, I feel like this is way, way too cheap ... I was pricing it for friend price, but it seems to have not mattered .........)
Lost the 4x10 @ $525 max coverage both sides ...
I did get one big job however, 4 x 15 double sided ... but it's a charity so I told them I'd do it for free. See ... I knew I could get one!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
I'm loosing them one after another also. military quotes. neighborhood sign redos. the prices these other sign companies are doing this stuff for sure isnt allowing for any mistakes to be made before they lose money.
Raymond what is the difference between rich and lucrative? They would appear to me to be about the same since you cant have 1 till you get the other.Its not how much money you make it's what you do with once you have it
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Darn! I just loss another one, a restaurant. I never really gave the guy a price, just a big ballpark fiqure. Who ever they used did a okay job, but it weren't me. I might have to go in and vist with a secret microphony in my pocket. If it works out okay, I'll put it on youtube. Maybe the guy didn't like the comment I made about his hair. It was bad, that weird guy, long hair, skinny ponytail look. It just doesn't work on all men.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Alicia B. Jennings: It was bad, that weird guy, long hair, skinny ponytail look. It just doesn't work on all men.
That look doesnt work on ANY men.. but I can speculate what your comment was to him.. "Hey, nice ponytail. Mind if I cut it off and use it for a striping brush?"
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's a little here thankfully. On one stretch of 50 mile roadway, at one point three years ago, there were six sign shops. Today there are three, same number as twenty years ago and coincidentally the same three shops including me. With the recession here, the newer outfits are fast disappearing leaving the established outfits. Consequently we are getting substantially busier. Prices remain tight but I believe that will be the norm for probably the next decade. My saving grace is having virtually no overheads and all equipment fully paid for. Means I don't have to always get the same price as say four years ago when I had lots of repayments to meet every month. So I believe over time, some shops will close but the better ones will survive and thrive again with less competition
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
..... Loafed bread is in aisle 4 and averages $2.00 
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic