posted
Ok, saw this on the news not long ago, that already, 41 states have dropped teaching cursive writing in schools. I was wondering what your thoughts are, on this issue? I do not always get on here, so I hope this is not a subject that has been discussed already.
I myself think it is awful! How are these kids going to be able to read ANYTHING from their past? Old letetrs, documents, historical documents, & ANYTHING WE OLDER PEOPLE WRITE? What about the issue of signatures? It was always stated that a signature was cursive, & then the name printed.
Is this a product of the computer age? Or is this encouraging kids to get lazier still? Jeez, this whole thing has me upset. I think it stinks. The dumbing down of America, or the world even.
Ok, I have vented, now your opinions?
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Hey as long as they know the important stuff... like what Paris Hilton's new favorite trend is or Justin Beiber's newest album! LOL
Pretty sad if you ask me.
[ August 02, 2011, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Kelsey Dum ]
-------------------- Kelsey Dum Dum Designs Sherwood, AR 72120 501.765.2166 kelsey@dumdesigns.com Posts: 827 | From: Sherwood, AR | Registered: Oct 2005
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It's OK. The more formal education one receives is directly related to how illegible one's handwriting is anyhow. Have you ever tried to read any prescription written by your doctor ? I am amazed that pharmacists are able to decipher and comprehend those scrawls. I sometimes wonder if we're actually receiving the medication that the doctor had in mind, or if we're sometimes given something else, when communication breaks down between the physician and pharmacist.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Personally, other than signing your name, I see no need for it. I never did use it unless I had to. More of a combo print/cursive, my own style. Heck, I am on the computer so much I can barely write at all nowadays!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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That's nothing. Some schools are teaching that the second amendment does not apply anymore because we no longer have muzzle loaders. My dad always said "I never let school get in the way of my education". Words to live by.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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Sad, and ridiculous, in my opinion. They should be doing more teaching, not less of it...
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I think it's mainly part of the general decline of discipline in the schools. And part of the new general direction the schools have taken. It's up to the parents to teach the kids what the schools dont, but it's tough to do that.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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I dont write in cursive and think it uncalled for. and my signature in cursive on documents is indescribable. I classify this with chemistry and calculus!
as far as them not teaching this Im sure it sin the public schools. Remember these schools are owned by the govt. No kid shall be smarter than the largest idiot in the class! thats out motto.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
The things that matter most are no longer taught in our schools. It is sad, and it's happening faster than we can blink our eyes.
I WILL teach my children the art of cursive writing. I love beautiful handwriting and I intend to keep that skill alive in my family.
Sooner than later you will see a rise in home schooling. Our gov't wants us to be dependant on them. Why not? It would give them ALL the power. Its times like now when we have to stand up, and do whats right because America as we once knew it is no longer. I am only 30 years old and it scares the hell out of me.
Why and how can we let it get so bad!?
-------------------- Theresa N. Hoying Visual Concepts 130 South Lester Avenue Sidney, Ohio 45365 937.492.2110 Posts: 176 | From: Sidney, Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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One less hand/eye coordintion skill being taught. Pretty soon you won't be able to get shoes with laces or ties that aren't clip-ons. Kids already can't fasten a belt.....that's why their pants are hanging below their A holes.
Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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We're raising a generation of fat, lazy, dumb kids....our future. They can't write; they can't do math (without a calculator): they don't know how many justices are in the Supreme Court, or maybe even if the Supreme Court is just a great place to play tennis. Their main focus is on Beyonce's latest lewd dance steps, how to properly put a condom on a cucumber (though apparently not told what happens if you don't use one), or how to immerse yourself in video games unendingly, so you don't have to spend any time with your family.
Their textbooks are all being altered to fit into today's political correctness agenda's. The kids pretty much run the classrooms, with no discipline. More money is now being spent on schools than ever before, but the administrators are making all the money, and the kids get nothing.
And to me, one of the most important things...God and country are gone from schools. There's no more Pledge of Allegiance, no more prayers allowed. Hell, many schools don't even teach english anymore; kids aren't encouraged to learn it.
I'm praying for Americans to wake up.....enough is enough! We've got to take our country back, before we're Greece. We used to be the country others looked up to; the country prople came to, to better themselves, and to learn more from the best. Now, we're told by this government that we're not the best, shouldn't ever again expect to be the best; and should apologize to the rest of the world for our 'uppity' attitude and all the 'wrongs' we've done to them. BULL!!!!!
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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They tried cutting recess and physical ed. Look where it got us - Americans are a largely unhealthy, overweight society.
Interestingly, (in the handwriting category) in France the kids learn cursive only, they never learn to print. They never use pencils either, always ink and it is possible for a first grader to learn it this way (my daughters did).
The pledge of allegiance originally never had god mentioned in it.
-------------------- Joy Kjer Art On Display Signs 4001 Randolph St Lincoln, NE
"My life has a superb cast, but I can't figure out the plot." Posts: 445 | From: 4001 Randolph St. Lincoln, NE | Registered: Jun 2002
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In grade 5 my son was allowed to do most of his homework on the computer. It was effortless for both of us I will admit.
In grade 6, it was all about writing it out by hand again in ink. In cursive.
It was an interesting experiment to see two years very different from each other. No idea what Canada has in store in this area but I can only hope it's a little of both.
posted
As we all know the best way to control the peoples, is to keep the as stupid as possible. Real History,,what for? Math,' I have a computor Basic Chemistry,,,What's that? Economics,,,Is that a new credit card? Learning a real trade,,,Sound of crickets I'm not gonna say it, but kids learn best from their parents.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3816 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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Brush scripts all caps forever! I still make notes to myself in cursive. It is just faster. When I really try, I can actually read them later. If the kids today wanna learn cursivem they will. They figured out to type at 4 to work the computer, so why not.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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If they have to get rid of cursive writing, at least bring back art and music to replace it. They keep cutting and cutting and cutting.
The problem I see with schools is that they are trying so hard to catch up to the 21 century technology, which they should be doing, but it's expensive and they don't have the funding (for various reasons) to do that and keep other important programs. Schools seem to be used as political chess pieces for both parties at the expense of our children's education and it's sickening.
And the other problem are many of the parents today. I get the vibe that many parents think schools are meant to just babysit their kids, These parents need to participate more too.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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my wife teaches at a private school ( starting her 16th year) they teach penmanship (learning the correct way to write cursive legibly) all of the reading and writing skills are based on phonics (the correct way to pronounce words) and Spelling (the correct way to spell words) they require all students, starting in 1st grade, to learn how to give speeches, recite poems, by 5th grade learn how to correctly write and document research papers... history, science and fine arts could use some more depth...
My 2 adopted kids came from public school in the same town,and had none of those skills addressed, much less taught- they finished their first year in the private school- Maggie was A-B honor roll, and Jimmy was 1 point away from A-B Honor roll- they both struggled with basic phonics because our public school system doesn't bother to teach it anymore.
btw- My wife has the most beautiful cursive handwriting, and still writes stuff perfectly on the chalkboard...
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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my 1st grade teacher.........told my parents life with me was never going to be easy as most artists tend to get bored with mundane teaching. in 1st grade i was doing drawings on the 4th & 5th grade level. as for leaning to write, i was a left hander from the get go, and thank my 1st grade teacher again....SHE DIDNT FORCE ME TO USE MY RIGHT HAND!!!! altho in my later years i have become somewhat ambidextrous..........i paint,draw, eat wuth my left hand. i work a mouse RIGHT HAND ONLY!!! putting it in my left hand dont happen. i throw on a potters wheel in a right hander mode. i took piano and accordion lessons and didnt let being left handed bother me. schools not teaching art is a sad commentary on western eduction. once they removed the "paddle" its been all downhill since.
[ August 03, 2011, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Older generations are always appalled by the trends and habits of the younger generation...and the generation coming on will be just as appalled by their kids...it's an endless continuum...anyway I'm seriously considering getting a tatoo...maybe a lizard coming up the side of my neck and peeking out over my collar.
posted
Michael, we learned penmanship The Peterson Way, they gave us a pen & everything that said Peterson on it. Thatw as in grade school, around 3rd grade maybe?
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rusty, I agree with you about kids' parents being upset with new trends...but this is way beyond that.
They're coming out of school, "graduating" without being able to write (or in some cases, speak) and intelligible sentence.
They have little or no respect for their elders, teachers, or themselves (some of which should've started at home)
They have no concept of how great this country is, it's place in history, or the value of those who gave their lives to preserve it for them.
They're not taught to think for themselves, but memorize answers to problems given them. I heard this morning, that there were some kids graduating from college, that were functionally illiterate. They couldn't form a coherent paragraph, or a 2 minute talk on a given topic.
Thank God for those private schools that continue to teach values, concepts, and retain the basics, by which our young people form the foundation for a better life.
America used to be focused on excepionalism, in as many fields as possible. We're sadly drifting away from this, and are badly in need of a great awakening.....for our kids' futures.....and ours.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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when our 2 kids (now adopted) moved in with us, we moved them across town and to the school a few blocks away- they have the best tests scores of any of the other elementary schools in town-- but I got so frustrated, because they were simply teaching only what was on the "test"-- Maggie was in 3rd grade and they started teaching multiplication- they only worked on about half of the numbers, then abandoned that and started working on division-- simply because only a few of each were on the test... we took over and taught her ALL of the multiplication tables.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I must agree with Michael on this. Every year, I struggle with the financial end of parochial schooling, but by mid-year and definitely during the summer, I KNOW we made the right decision sending our son to Catholic School.
Our school follows much of the same principles as the school his wife teaches at. They are all required to attend Mass every Friday during school, beginning in 4K. Imagine that!!! 4 year-olds being respectful and quiet in church! The respect and discipline follows through in the school.
Each student is assigned 4 days throughout the year to read a prayer over the PA at then end of the school day. In first grade, they must do presentations for their class, the entire student body (3K-8th grade), the entire student body's families and the entire parish by reciting at Mass and serving.
Our food is home-made in our kitchen every day, without boxed and subsidized USDA crap. Our students are not allowed to have candy or other "poor choices" for snacks during the day. Yes, our entire school has "snack time" twice a day; morning and afternoon. The nutrition plan helps the kids focus and be more productive.
They are required to participate in phy-ed, music, art and Spanish class from 3K-8th. Every student is also highly encouraged to find (2) extracurricular activities to build into their routine; (1) physical activity and (1) humanity based (art, music/band, theatre, skating etc.) Our sports teams begin in 3rd grade for basketball, football and soccer.
During the school year, the entire school takes on service projects to benefit the school, the local community, the country and the world.
Our children are rewarded for exceptional service and behavior by receiving "jean passes" or "choice dress days"...because they have a uniform dress code. Solid colored, collared polos or dress shirts, khakis or navy jeans or skirts-no logos (not even an embroidered Nike or Izod!)
The school provides a "before school and after school program" along with a morning nutrition program. Our kids are loved by the faculty and staff and all the parents watch out/discipline all the kids. The families know each other and can openly discuss problems.
During the summer, the school opens its doors to any children for Summer Care (or summer daycare). Children from the public schools can attend. And you can tell which kids are from the public school system the first few weeks. They are disrespectful, shove and hit, call names and are overall troublemakers. Not to say that all of our kids are angels all the time, but they KNOW what is expected of them and HOW they should behave. Yes, some of this is parenting, but a lot of it, from my perspective is the environment you are exposed to every day. It is not easy to keep all these little ones on the right track, but we have some of the most devoted teachers around.
Our school does not receive any state or federal monies. WE do not receive any money from the Diocese either. Rather it is the other way around. Our payment every month to the Diocese is ridiculous. Our teachers have crummy insurance, horrible pay and somewhat sub-standard physical building working conditions compared to the (2) public schools within a (2) mile radius of our little school.
Our tuition and generous donations by alumni and other folks keep our school going. We have (6) SmartBoards, 64 laptops, and 120 desktop computers; all donations by foundations or corporations. Of all the catholic elementary schools in the Green Bay area (there are (10), we are the most technologically advanced. We even beat some of the Public Schools in that area. Our MAP (standardized testing) scores are in the 90th%!!
WE as parents, do not receive any tax credit for sending our kids to private school, lessening the "burden" on the public school system. However there is legislation in WI to pass a private school tax credit. Unfortunately for us, our son who is now entering 2nd grade, won't be eligible for the credit until he is in 8th grade.(staggered eligibility scale misses his grade completely.)
Our kids are sent home with teacher made workbooks for the summer, to complete and hand in to the next grade they are entering to show they have kept up with what they have learned over the summer.
Our school operates with 14 classrooms, (2) of them being multi purpose and the library, 22 on staff, 209 students and less than a $750,000 budget; for salaries, benefits, utilities, insurance, books and learning materials and classroom supplies. Our lunch program is REQUIRED by the Diocese to be fully self-supporting, including the salaries of the (2) full time staff in the kitchen. Parents are required to fulfill lunch and playground duties or pay a minimal fee to cover another parent's time. Each student is require to clean the school on the last week of school. We are required to supply reams of paper for copying assignments/homework, tissues, paper towels, antibacterial wipes etc.We do not operate in a deficit mode, nor do we have any reserves to speak of. Maybe if more public schools and parents took a note from the parochial/private schools, we wouldn't have these problems.
And yes, he will be learning to write in cursive...they began that at the end of first grade.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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ha!Thanks, David! It gets defended with our own money, input, blood, sweat, tears and involvement. Which, except for "sports", public schools have virtually no parental involvement.
Might be on to something...hmmmm...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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My kids received an excellent public school education here in Nebraska. They took advanced classes, including advanced chemistry and calculus but they also took government classes, creative writing classes and studied foreign lanquages. They both earned full tuition academic scholarships to colleges. Their school district deals with children who arrive as immigrants from over eighty countries with very little english in their vocabulary and that are living below the poverty level. I don't see private schools taking in these "problem" kids.
-------------------- Joy Kjer Art On Display Signs 4001 Randolph St Lincoln, NE
"My life has a superb cast, but I can't figure out the plot." Posts: 445 | From: 4001 Randolph St. Lincoln, NE | Registered: Jun 2002
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I have heard the schools say they want to concentrate on teaching the kids to type instead of learning them cursive writin'.
I learned to type in a couple of months. Cursive takes a little longer. So after they've taught them to type in a couple of months, then what? Heiroglyphics? Signpainting? I think they should teach them how to convert text into a vector.
Oh, wait ... that is another post.
Yes, it will be hilarious when the government requires a signature on an official document! Will a large X do? In crayon? No! They'll want a signature. Who looks stupid now?
"Uhhh ... sorry. Signature? I dunno what yer talkin' about. What's a John Hancock? Is that a new Lady Gaga song?"
oh, my ..........
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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Just give it a few more years, and graduates from our institutions of higher learning will be signing documents thusly:
...................X
those who have earned a degree will sign like this:
...................Xxx
functional illiterates will find a way folks.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Joy, I am sure there are some great public schools. I went to an excellent public school in northern WI. If there were problem kids, they were dealt with. We had the owners of the Korbel Brandy/Champange empire as our FBLA and business teachers! There was respect and discipline.
In our area, if our only issue was ESL (which half of our schools teach in Spanish as a FIRST language and English as second)with the immigrant kids (Hispanic, Hmong, Ukranian and Somali) it would be an "easy fix".
The biggest problem we have in Green Bay, is the welfare, homeless and drug kids. One of our downtown middle schools has 750 kids in grades 6-8. On any given day, 140 kids are absent, due to familial issues. And of the ones that do show up, some haven't eaten for days, some are beaten so badly that they couldn't show up for fear that the cops would find out. These kids are threatened to be killed or their family killed if they don't cooperate with the dealer's requests. Some just go missing for weeks and then show up again when mom finally "hooks up" with someone else who lives back in the neighborhood. It is easier to get benefits here than in Chicago and Milwaukee. So the dealers show up in the poor neighborhoods, have a bunch of kids, who grow up in the influence of the drug community, without any supervision and perpetuate the problems. Their parents could care less about educating their kids as long as they get the paycheck every month.
I have friends that are the Community Policing Officers and they spend every day, all day during school, IN the school, trying to keep the peace. There are students in the system that get passed up grade after grade, because it is easier to do that, then deal with their behavior or try to teach them something. They just want them out of the school disrupting everyone else and endangering safety. There are freshman that can't even write their own names, but if you know the minute you walk out of school that they are "packin" and you could be their next target for asking them to do homework, it is in your own best interest to avoid confronting them.
Our system has incredible programs for disabled kids, ESL programs, assistance, etc. but if the parents won't sign off or if the "hood" doesn't want you to be "better than everyone else", it won't work.
Our other issue is parents who work 90+ hours a week in their professional careers and leave teaching their kids any form of respect and discipline up to whomever watches them in the "people kennels" as I call them. Yes, they may go to Hawaii on vacation and buy the kid a Porsche on their 16th birthday, but purchasing things doesn't equal parenting. So these kids get bored, felt left behind and hook up with the drug kids...and the circle continues.
The one thing you will find in the best schools, be it public or parochial or private or charter, is the involvement of the parents. It is in everyone's best interest to be fully involved in what happens in your child's life. Not easy to live/survive on one paycheck, but it can be done. Not fun to work opposite shifts, but if that is what it takes to raise your children properly... Not easy to operate on less than 5 hours of sleep per night, perpetually.
I guess children are seen as a burden and an irritant these days. And it takes soooo much time and enormous energy to develop a respectful, contributing member of society that most people just give up.
As you can see, it is a bit of a passionate topic for me...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Joy Kjer: My kids received an excellent public school education here in Nebraska. They took advanced classes, including advanced chemistry and calculus but they also took government classes, creative writing classes and studied foreign lanquages. They both earned full tuition academic scholarships to colleges. Their school district deals with children who arrive as immigrants from over eighty countries with very little english in their vocabulary and that are living below the poverty level. I don't see private schools taking in these "problem" kids.
They will if they pay, just like everbody else.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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"They will if they pay, just like everbody else."
Anything for "free" isn't all that great!
Sometimes it applies to education as well. As the nation has seen, WI started a hell-storm with it's budget cuts and requiring teachers to contribute to their healthcare and "retirement." I have lots of public school teacher friends who were furious about this. Their salaries are double of what our parochial teachers make, plus great benefits.
Not one peep out of our teachers...it is what it is...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Our parochial "system" has several hundred thousand dollars to distribute between the (10) schools.
Tuition per child is $1800 per year, plus fees, lunches etc. Our total out of pocket for (1) child in first grade last year was $2475.00.
As an example, a family of (4), with an income of $40,000 per year, with a mortgage, WILL NOT qualify for tuition assistance in our system. Which means, any student living in a household of (4)+ people, and earning under $40,000 per year without a mortgage, will. There is plenty of aid for those who are qualified to apply for it.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Thank you Nikki, you are well informed, & it sure is good to read the words of someone who cares like you do.....
"Sometimes it applies to education as well. As the nation has seen, WI started a hell-storm with it's budget cuts and requiring teachers to contribute to their healthcare and "retirement." I have lots of public school teacher friends who were furious about this. Their salaries are double of what our parochial teachers make, plus great benefits."
I have heard bits & pieces about this myself on the news, & I cannot repeat what I have heard as well as you put it, but thank you.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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