posted
I just got a request from a potential customer about cutting some vinyl graphics. He showed me the quote from a local Sign-a-Rama for 100 2" x 8" 4-color graphics, individually cut and weeded letters and logo. Their price: .65 each.
How in the hell can they produce that at a profit?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Didn't you hear.. They Outlawed Profit in America.
Actually Sonny, They are selling by the Foot. They are looking at Material costs not Perceived Value. They can get 8 Decals out of a Square foot which costs them .30 cents sqft. Selling at $5.20 a Sqft.
posted
But we're talking 4 different colors - and the lettering is 1/2" tall (I hate weeding tiny letters) I can't for the life of me figure out how it can be done without losing your shirt......
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Buy a roll of vinyl for $50 dollars cut letters sell them cheap,now I have $60. Ten dollars more than I paid for the whole roll. Now I'm out of vinyl,gotta buy another roll. After thinking this whole situation over,my wife and I have talked this over and have decided we have to buy another plotter and then we can make twice the money.We probably will have to put up some kind of partition to move the chickens to the other end of the house so we will have more room for the new plotter we found on craigs list.This is where we can save again.I found an old 100 ft. extension cord that will reach from the bedroom window and I want have to buy a book showing me how to rig up a new plug for the new plotter cause fire flys out of the one we planed to use.Yall see...this is how they make money!
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Sonny - I hate to even say it, but I worked at a Sign-A-rama for almost a year I am happy to say, that the owner of that shop, went out of business after only one year. He did not know how to price anything! I learned a lot about overhead, costs, pricing (and that franchise is scary). I know several of those Sign-A-Rama "stores" have gone out of business, in my area, for the same reason - bad at pricing. Even though very few of these franchise stores survive, it still doesn't help the rest of our established and legitimate sign shops, because those "stores" give customers a false price scale! It's makes me sick, but on a positive note, I do get several new, good customers a year - say they had a franchise store make some signs for them - the store is gone or did a poor job, so these new customers say they've learned their lesson - go to an experienced sign professional!
-------------------- Kathy Weeks Weeks-End Signs & Graphics Lake Elmo, Minnesota Posts: 249 | From: Lake Elmo, Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
That's why so many of these franchise things don't last; everybody's cutting each others' throats on pricing to where nobody's making any money.
The customer suffers because of the lousy quality of the work, but we suffer too. These knuckleheads are giving us a bad name, because now people want stuff for the same price they charged....and they want it yesterday.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
That's why we stopped doing corroplast signs. Sign A Rama and Fast Signs quote way too low. It ends up making us look like we may charge too much for the signs that really make our business.
-------------------- Keith Jenicek Artisan Signs St. Louis, MO
posted
exactly Keith! Let them have all that quick sticker crap...go ahead and get that franchise paid for sign-a-rama and good luck!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
So glad we don't those assclowns here! They won't last long...but they seem to love to take down the whole industry with their lack of business knowledge.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Boy O Boy Most of you have got that one wrong... I was a Partner in a Fast Signs one time, at least around here I count Fast Signs as a Good Sign Company as far as pricing goes... they for the most part charge a fair price and are on the higher side when it comes to pricing, comparable to me actually. The worst ones around here are 2 experienced Sign Guys who are absolutley Terrible when it comes to pricing and quality. There's also a SignsNow who charge a decent price as well.
Saying that most of these Franchise shops charge low is not my experience.. they have to pay for Franchise fees and a Commission. Usually have a high end Store front and all the bells and whistles. Most of the LowBallers here are one or 2 man operations who operate out of their houses much like a lot on here. lol
At least that's my experience... seems like it's different in some of your areas.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Nothing is new under the sun. Thirty years ago it was the "wino joes". The big difference between now and then is the sheer numbers of low ballers. Memphis is a fairly large area, around a million metro population. We might have had a half a dozen "joes" back in the day. Nowadays there are hundreds. I'm actually just guessing because I'm really pretty far removed from sign work, mostly because of just this sort of thing.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
If all computers,digital printers,vinyl cutters and automatic screen presses had a meltdown, the sign business would be a search and find situation for someone to PAINT THEM SIGNS.These people are very rare
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Sonny, stuff like that boggles my mind too.
Another thing that wracks my brain is how customer's standards seem to be lowering along with the demishing quality of signwork. Quality work is taking a back seat to saving time and a buck. I swear, sometimes I think they'd take even a spelling error on their name and say it's "good enough" just to check "signs" off their to-do list quickly for cheap. haha
That 'ol saying that goes fast, cheap and good, .... pick two ... Well, fast and cheap seems to be the choice more often now, by the looks of it.
My question to the shops who fall short on pricing is not only how but .... why?
quote:Originally posted by Janette Balogh: Sonny, stuff like that boggles my mind too.
My question to the shops who fall short on pricing is not only how but .... why?
This is something I've never been able to get my head around. Would these same people use this approach when applying for a job? " I see you are applying for a position with our company. Our saleries start at $57,000 a year." " Oh, I can work for much less, how about $31,000"
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Obviously, someone has convinced many of these newbie franchise owners that the best way to get new accounts is through lowering prices. Then, once those accounts are acquired, they can then adjust the prices so that profits can be made.
This was never a well thought ouy strategy. Low prices initially establishes the benchmark that these shops are willing to do work for. If they last long enough to get to the "raising price" stage, they encounter resistance, or have established a reputation for cutting corners and inferior craftsmanship. It becomes difficult transistion to the point where they price and sell at realistic levels, so they give it up as a lost cause, and another steps up to suscribe to the same strategy to success that their predecessor just gave up on. The cycle repeats itself, and everyone suffers.
The real mystery is why so many fools buy into such a business model ?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Most retail businesses use a concept called a loss leader. The theory is get them into the store then upsell or sell them something they didn't know they "needed". It's worked very effectively since retail was born. Franchise shops are often run by people with retail business backgrounds, so you see lots of 'Non traditional' sign marketing techniques. Consumer's are basically dumb. They can easily be persuaded that just because your the cheapest in town at decals, that it stands to reason that your the dimensional letters are too. Just get them in the door and your in control. How you proceed from there is up to you. Safeway didn't get to where it is afraid to cut all profits on one item, only to make it back many fold on chips, ice cream and bread. That said, lot's of retailers fail because they don't follow through with service and quality once they get the customers' attention. The same would be true in the sign businesses. Just another perspective, take it or not.
posted
I just hand lettered an HHR last week - it was requested by the owner. No vinyl - it was fun for me!
I have to back up Neil - FastSigns in my area understands pricing. Sign-A-Rama, on the other hand, has a computer price program called 'Casper", that all their franchise owners have to buy. They tell the owners it's "automatic" and will price all and any sign for you - just punch in the dimensions and material and it figures it precisely for you. But, that's not where the problem starts - I had a Sign-A-Rama rep. tell me that 9 out of 10 of these owners thinks they're "buying a job". They know nothing of the sign trade, no talent, no clue, but they're going to run a sign business and make lots of money. I met two of these so called owners, and neither one of them knows how to/or sits down to figure out how much labor, material and overhead costs for each custom sign - why? They said,"Because we don't like doing that - it gives me a headache."
-------------------- Kathy Weeks Weeks-End Signs & Graphics Lake Elmo, Minnesota Posts: 249 | From: Lake Elmo, Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Neil D. Butler: Very Rare Bill, actually extinct would be a better word.
Ouch! I hand letter stuff all the time...Not as much as the old days, but still...Last Friday I lettered an interior wall for a Chiropractor. He stood and watched me for the better part of an hour. He said he just loves to watch a craftsman at work. Made my week!
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
That's Great Brian, Maybe extinct around here, even though I can certainly hand letter, I Don't have much call for it. I do know there's quite a few on here who make a good living from it, "Extinct" not yet. lol
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Duncan Wilkie: Most retail businesses use a concept called a loss leader. The theory is get them into the store then upsell or sell them something they didn't know they "needed".
Don't drug dealers use this concept as well?
-------------------- Army Dave Oz Posts: 229 | From: Brisbane, Oz | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I told my customer that they either had some low wage employees they need to keep busy or they've come up with a way to produce them that cheap and still make a buck. I keep wondering, is it the latter? I've almost quit doing coro, magnetics, and banners because I can order them much cheaper than I can produce them myself. For awhile, I was singing the "Middleman Blues", thinking that my days as a REAL signman were over and I was now just a salesman. Then I realized that those were the signs I usually didn't enjoy making anyway - I have no printer heads to clean, no equipment payments and I can have the stuff in my hands in 2 days at a much bigger profit than before. We can debate the merits of franchise sign shops til hell freezes over, but I have to thank them for making the rest of us come to terms with the business end of signmaking......
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:We can debate the merits of franchise sign shops til hell freezes over, but I have to thank them for making the rest of us come to terms with the business end of signmaking......
That's the simple truth Sonny. We have to make a choice is it a Hobby or a Business?
posted
I agree with Neil we have some FastSign stores in our area that are pros and very successful. Generally their prices are on the high side. I am sure they are grossing north of $500,000 a year...wish. could say the same. Can't say thesame about SignARamas a few went out of biz but one FastSign also didnt make it. Iguess it's the operater more than the franchise.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
FastSigns seeks former Business owners or Managers of Business's for their operations. Your Right Tony, they average Half a Mil a year for most, some hit a Million and beyond. I spent 4 years with them went to 3 conventions in Texas, and they are a slick company, at least they were when I was there. Of course I brought my old customers and my Sign "Skill" when I was approached by the local owner over 15 years ago. I left Fast Signs after about 4 years, it was a decent seperation with him buying me out. I opened again on the other side of town and have a storefront operation.. I always have work and push towards the Half Million a year in sales myself, of course my expenses are a lot more than most, but I get to have time for myself can take holidays basically when I want, and that is worth it's weight in gold... and the business still runs without me. Has it been Easy? No.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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