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On Monday, our county commisioners will be having a special meeting about adopting a new sign ordinance. Just looking at some of the documents on their webpage, it looks like it will be much more involved and restrictive. I've never been to one of these. If I attend, what are the main things I need to know or be concerned with. Thanks
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I'm envolved at present going through revisions of our sign ordinances. The best suggestion is form a committee of sign companies in the area with who ever else and go through line by line. The best imput is from people in the business. Leave it non sign people and you're in trouble.
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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I wouldn't think they would address anything except pass or fail. The ordinances should be reviewed from time to time. We set up a separate meeting for the committee. We meet once a week and go throught it. Not a quick thing to do.
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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Contact the commissioner for your area and ask his/her opinion on the specifics of the proposed ordinance. This will give you the opportunity to address your specific concerns prior to the meeting.
At the meeting itself, be sure to type out your concerns point by point, item by item. In my county, we can hand out copies to the commissioners during the meeting. If you provide a compelling enough case, odds are they will table the ordinance for further review, and if they are smart, ask for you to participate.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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If you can get a hold of the ordinance and send it to The United States Sign Council, they will review it for anything that would be unconstitutional. There is more out there than you would think, and they usually have their lawyers look them over.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5400 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I chaired a Sign by-law task force in our town, a committee of five. I as a member of our planning board, two resident members, one member of the business community,one member of the historical commision.
This board was charged with bringing our three paragraph sign regs into the 21 century.This was not an easy task as some were toatly against all signage, wanted all signs the same size, wanted to be in control the color as well as the copy and banning many types of signage in including permits for interior paper window signage.
By having a sign professional on the board with common sense, we were able to write new sign by-laws here that protect the residents, business owners as well as the municipality, this came about by following the United States Sign Council, SBA reg's, International Sign Code, International Zoning Code as well as the Massachusetts Building Code CMR 780.
We as a task force modified, updated and fine tuned our sign codes of three paragraphs to fourteen pages to bring forth a responsible, workable and understandable code to protect the business community, residents and the town of Millbury.
I implore you as sign professionals to get involved with revamping your local sign codes and educate the uneducated politicians that know more then you, of what you need.
I would be glad to share any information with anyone that may be intereste in working to revamp your sign codes in your community, give me a call or email.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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In our area if they have called for a public hearing they are obligated to hear what ever you have to say. Having a handout and then going through the hand out is certainly in order. However our commissioners have set a 5 minute time limit on presentations from the floor. While I was in attendance the 5 minute limit has only been challenged twice and both times they recanted and allowed for more time. Don't let them bully you, they called for a public hearing. There is strength in numbers, if you have employees have them in attendance and in uniform if available. If there is a pending provision that looks like it may preclude you from doing business as usual have your portfolio available to address any questions they may have as reference material. Be prepared. Russ
-------------------- Russ Wood Hobby-Tronics Chiloquin, OR Posts: 13 | From: Chiloquin Oregon | Registered: Dec 2010
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Wayne, Who is pushing for the ordinance and why? Get ready cause your world could very well change dramatically for the worse. I lived with our sign ordinance and subsequent changes for about 25 years then things got brutal. In Tallahassee you must be a licensed sign contractor now to pull a sign permit. Any sign over 24 Sq. Ft. unless exempt.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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It will only benefit you to get involved and state your case. Most of the time the people on these committees aren't familiar with what a sign can do for a business. When you can show them the actual benefits of GOOD signage, they usually will listen. Speak your piece, with a tilt towards advertising and it's benefits to the customers who need your services. It's a good time to educate people as to the plus side of signs!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I think I'd ask them for their reasoning behind such restrictions.
In my county, such signage is restricted to 50 sqft. It was determined that 32 sqft. would make the sign so small that it would be hard to read until one was almost on top of it. And given people's nature to slam on the brakes at the last minute, the smaller sign could actually make driving more hazardous.
What I would point out is that the sign should be large enough (ie-legibility) that it can be read from a certain distance so as to give a driver unfamiliar with the road sufficient time to safely brake before turning.
If traveling though the county at 45 or 55 mph, how many feet would the driver need to read the sign, react by giving a turn signal and come to a stop or slow down sufficiently to safely make the turn? Will the sign be legible at that distance?
Making it a safety issue is probably something they haven't considered.
[ March 07, 2011, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
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A vehicle travelling at 55 mph covers 80.666 ft per second. According to studies, the ideal time period to read a sign is 5 seconds. So the vehicle has covered 403.333' in those 5 seconds. According to Gemini's letter visiblilty chart, the minimum readable size at that distance is supposed to be just a tad over 9". Of course, if the sign isn't to wordy, it would work if just the main copy is 9".
A good deal of the time, economics is s big factor in limiting sign size. But I'm just thinking there would be needs for larger signs. I know that I want mine larger.
[ March 07, 2011, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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The meeting was just a public hearing and so was not the final one. It went very well. One other sign shop owner was there, who was also one of the committee members. But other than that, there were only eight souls in the room and half of those were my wife, two kids and myself. Everyone was very nice and encouraged me to express all of my concerns so I was given plenty of time to do that. I also mentioned your suggestion, Glenn, as well as increasing the size limit to 50 sq ft. The head planner also asked me to email my suggestions to him and to meet with him in his office this morning, which I did. I'm glad we attended. http://fosterfollynews.com/news/2011March7SignCommitteePublicHearing.php
[ March 08, 2011, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Good job, Wayne. See it wasn't as painful as you thought. I think sometimes people just make rules to make rules. And if they don't see any opposition or reason NOT to, they feel justified! It can be a pain to deal with committees but it would be much harder to deal with after it's "law" than getting to have some input to make changes in the basic ideas & intent. Ask them what their intent is? For instance, WHY are you limiting sizes...is there a reason? Keep on it....
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Wayne, the most beautiful place I've ever seen for signs is Banff, Canada. A very talented Letterhead named Larry Whan worked extensively with the city council to develop a sign ordinance that skewed the rules in his favor. He successfully lobbied for only dimensional signs in natural materials - just so happens he was a woodcarver and gold leaf guy and pretty much cut the vinyl/digital guys totally out of the picture. Since you already have your foot in the door and you do some incredible work (I've driven thru Chipley) take this golden opportunity to tweak the new ordinance in your direction.......
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Sonny makes a good point. Our codes are different for the downtown than the rest of the town. They won't allow neon or internally lit signs downtown. There are a few grandfathered in but it's a rule that we didn't have anything to do with, but works to OUR advantage. They want to keep the downtown historic and "oldtime", ALSO a good thing for us. Keep on the lookout for what they are proposing and come up with your OWN set of ideas and present them.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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You should also consider "grandfathering" the sign you'd like to build by permitting it now. Every state is different, but most treat a sign that has received a permit the same as a sign which was built. Changing the law does not void the permit.
Some of you know that I chair a number of town committees, including the one which reviews town bylaws and one which is reviewing the Town Charter (our local Constitution).
If an issue affects your livelihood, and some of the provisions you mentioned certainly do, then you must stay involved. You should not take anything for granted just because you were allowed to speak at a public hearing.
Most jurisdictions require legislative action to occur at a public meeting. The meeting that counts is the one in which a vote will be taken. You should propose specific amendments and ask your representative to present them.
Committees love discussing issues without voting. No harm, no foul, they'll agree with or to anything. But all committees eventually vote on specific language and you want that language changed.
If you want the language requiring a license to pull a permit changed, or maximum size increased to 50 square feet from 32, the proposal must be amended.
Each amendment is voted separately. Amendments that pass are incorporated into the main motion, which is voted on last.
At the very least, the process allows for discussion on each specific amendment proposed, so someone has to provide a clear, convincing reason for voting one way or the other.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Get some allies, put together a one page synopsis of the proposed regulations and what they will mean to local business and mail it to all your customers and all local businesses asking for their input/attendenace at meetings
posted
WHOA...before you start mailing out letters to all the businesses, see if there is a reason to do that. Don't come off TOO confrontational and have a MOB show up to challenge them unless there really is a problem. You can calmly talk to several key, important business owners in the area and ask them if they are aware of the new proposals and see what they think. And see where the committee is going with this before you have everyone involved and upset. Maybe it will all be worked out simply and with little fanfare. If not, THEN start circling the wagons and lining up the guns.
[ March 09, 2011, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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The county's head planner came by the shop, dropped off a copy of the revised ordinance and cheerfully informed me that they made all of my proposed changes. I just skimmed over it, but so far, it looks like they did. I'm glad that I went to the meeting.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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OK, I finally got time to look the new ordinance over. These were some of my initial concerns....
quote:1. On premise ground signs are to be limited to 32 sq ft.
2. Even subdivision signs will be limited to 32 sq ft.
3. The regulations are countywide; not just city anymore.
4.All billboards are prohibited outside of industrial or commercial zones. (Industral is almost nonexistent BTW)
5. All signs require a licensed contractor to pull permits and install...unless you're a DIY on your own property and even that carries restrictions.
6. I'm not yet sure if they will license me.
7. No sign can be located adjacent to a federal or state highway...and that includes my business location.
8. IF I am allowed a sign at my location, it may be limited to 6 sq ft.
At my suggestion, they increased the size of on premise ground signs from 32 sqft to 50sqft; but only in Ag/Silviculture zones.
Billboards can now be installed in Ag/Silviculture zones by "special exception" instead of only in Industrial and commercial zones. So that one is a little more hopeful too.
Even though they increased the size limit of signs in Ag/Silviculture zones to 50sqft. They left "isolated busniness signs" (which is about the same thing) at 32sq ft. But this may have been an oversight.
The signs "shall not be located adjacent to a State or Federal Highway" clause still remains so that one wasn't changed
.Subdivision signs still have a size limit of 32sqft so that one definitely wasn't changed either.
"County licensed sign contractor" has been removed from the "permit applicants" section. Now only FL licensed general contractors or FL registered building contractors can install signs. So that one restricts me even more.
.
[ August 23, 2011, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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At my suggestion, they increased the size of on premise ground signs from 32 sqft to 50sqft; but only in Ag/Silviculture zones.
----why not suggest property frontage with a maximum size closer to 75-100 square feet and have a max letter height. Does this include the structure of just the sign face or lettering?
Even though they increased the size limit of signs in Ag/Silviculture zones to 50sqft. They left "isolated busniness signs" (which is about the same thing) at 32sq ft. But this may have been an oversight.
---- same thing, base on frontage with max letter height and a larger maximum size?
The signs "shall not be located adjacent to a State or Federal Highway" clause still remains so that one wasn't changed
---What's their reasoning? If the state and fed have no problem, why should they? the only thing they should consider is field of view, set back and construction (breakaway post if needed or engineering which is required in your state for anything over a certain height)
.Subdivision signs still have a size limit of 32sqft so that one definitely wasn't changed either.
---I think they should reconsider on size of subdivision with a larger max size.
"County licensed sign contractor" has been removed from the "permit applicants" section. Now only FL licensed general contractors or FL registered building contractors can install signs. So that one restricts me even more.
---Way too restrictive, there is a Florida Sign Contractors license, that should be the minimum.
I would contact ISA and your local sign organization...
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oh snap, I just took a peek, there is nor Florida state sign contractors license... I always thought there was.
I think you should suggest having the company pulling the permit to carry the correct insurances and where required engineering on structures. Otherwise if it's electrical, have an electrical contractor hook up the electrical.... requiring a general contractors is ridiculous.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I know three over here in Tallahassee. This state license does exist. It my be Called an Electrical sign contractors Lic. At one time Leon County had a Non-Electrical Specialty sign Lic. I have obtained niether.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Sauls: I know three over here in Tallahassee. This state license does exist. It my be Called an Electrical sign contractors Lic. At one time Leon County had a Non-Electrical Specialty sign Lic. I have obtained niether.
Ah, Just found it, It's under Electrical Contractor Specialty... fabrication, erection, installation, and maintenance of electrical advertising signs (class code 067)
There looks like there is a "Sign Erection (Nonelectric) Category--Class "SE"" but can't find it.
Both are hard to find in the State Contractor's website. What a pain to find.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wayne, we have a "Non Electric Specialty" contractor's license. The State of Florida, to my knowledge, does not have a designation for "Sign Contractor" for registration - only electrical sign contractors. We had to take a contractor's exam in order to get the NES title so we can pull permits. We can install electric signs but the hook up must be done by a licensed electrician, and a separate electric permitmust be obtained. Our license is issued for Duval County and reciprocated by 2 other counties. It was quite a battle to get one of the other counties to reciprocate as they kept insisting we be registered by the state. There were some thick headed people who were hard to deal with.Good luck!
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1267 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Take a hot towel and a cigar box full of wasps...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Joking aside, some of the former clients (business people ) should be there. They are the money guys... People who spend money on signs...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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But I second what TomKat said.
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