posted
I'm not sure how approachable banks are elsewhere, but over last few months I've managed to greatly reduce my outgoings by renegotiating my mortgage and voluntarily surrendering my four year old jeep back to finance company. Only three months finance on large format printer and I'm virtually debt free. Beginning to rap the benefits of it too. At times I considered giving up but quickly realised I can't do anything else
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
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If I had to stay at the old ways, I would have been out to pasture years ago, you have to adapt, evolve, and try to use your talents the best you can with the modern world, to stay a little bit better than the other guys.. Use your Experience to your advantage.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Honest to God Pierre, I was thinking about you on my drive in to the shop this morning. I hate to see anyone going through a hard time, I really do...You put out the best work, but sometimes it doesn't matter.... With all the trucks being leased these days people want Vinyl for the most part, easy to remove afterwards. A man with your talent could do awesome work with a computer and still offer the customer the traditional work, of course at a premium price.
I don't know what the answer is anymore, I always stay busy, and it is still always tight, even with 4 other guys producing, but the cash flow works most of the time, it better be after all these years. There's still a couple of shops around here I wish would smarten up all the same, they drag the business down and themselves by cutting their own throats.. but that's the way it will always be, there will always be those type of shops.
Now where did I put those Striping brushes, I have to outline some ribbons That I airbrushed on that trailer in the portfolio section.. see? I still get to play once and a while.lol
Good Luck everyone, and never give in too easy.
[ March 02, 2011, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Thanks for your concern Neil. I see what you mean, I have got sign people on my case all the time concerning doing vynil and digital printing. To tell you the truth I did vynil back in 1993, for a year. I hated it. I like painting, I don't really like "making" signs! If it doesn't work with the brush, I'd rather do something else. Sometimes I am thinking about opening a restaurant or driving a truck, something different. I would still paint on my free time tough. But anyway I am far from that, there is still a few particular markets I have to try before I put my brushes down. Meanwhile I am buying lottery tickets, two a week! Life is so good after all!!
And sorry Corey if I sound like I hijacked your post, I totally understand your concerns.
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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I was following this thread over the last couple days. I have talked with other sign people and find they are in the same boat as I am.
Karen, I met you in person, back when I attended meets too, and Karen, you, as usual, speak with wisdom and truth.
Cory, I feel for you, bro. Hang in there, we went through something similar in 2006-2008. Still cleaning up the mess. Life was good in 2005. I had employees, and even paid their health insurance. Then, 2006 humbled us very quickly.
Today, we are a one man show with the worlds greatest designer still frelancing for us. We have been educated at the school of hard knocks.
We also have 3 grand children and find material things matter alot less than they used to. With the reduced overhead. I have more time for them, and hope to have a positive influence in their lives. I want to show them that focus on spiritual matters is much more important than anything else. And, if you've seen me lately, you know I am not starving.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I too, have been following this thread with tears in my eyes.I am not in the the sign business, but we have a small construction business which has been hit hard in the past 5 years. We are down to my husband and myself and I am not paid. He is working in Shreveport, LA because there is no work here. We are VERY greatful for that work. When we don't have construction business, he drives a truck. I have a great 'real' job in health care that provides the stable part of our income...but 18 months ago, my hours were reduced to part time due to cut backs and my own health issues. We used to have 15 sub-contractors working for us with several jobs running at the same time. Now, we don't have the work for our son to work with us. It is very hard now and if oil keeps going up, it will be worse. You are in our prayers and hope that you find the path that is correct for you and your family.
Kerri Brownlee Glorious Graphics and Gifts Mayflower, Ar
-------------------- Kerri Brownlee Glorious Graphics and Gifts 312 Hwy 89 N Mayflower, Arkansas 72106 Posts: 20 | From: Mayflower, Arkansas | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Good luck to everyone who is struggling...it's tough out there, and I don't see it getting any better for awhile...so do what you have to do to survive.
It is tough out there, I love Neils Post.....Never give up....but sometimes you have to. Been there, done that....and now looking back may have done things differently...but you can't go back...so you move forward one day at a time....remembering all you do have to be thankful for. "Keep Positive" and "This to shall pass" has been my motto for the last 7 years.
-------------------- Patricia A. Raap Raap Signs 2615 Arthur Coopersville, MI 49404 616-677-0158 pat@raapsigns.com Posts: 575 | From: Coopersville, MI 49404 | Registered: Nov 2003
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I think a lot of us here are in the same boat. We just had our first profitable month in the last year and a half. Since our business was heavily geared toward truck lettering the downturn in construction and new vehicle sales put a huge dent in our work load. Luckily we do have 30 years worth of satisfied customers so we did have work but barely enough to make ends meet. The cost of health insurance has increased drastically, they said it is because of our ages. Taxes and utilities are also on the rise. Unfortunately we lose quite a few jobs to people who are giving the work away so it makes it hard for us to raise our prices to cover escalating costs. For the first time I considered getting a job at night to bring in some extra income. Instead I decided to stay late at the shop and spend extra time on the jobs we had and tried to give each job a little something special. This has paid off in some very satisfied customers. I've been spending some of those evening shop hours revamping our web site and our Facebook page both which have been bringing in their share of the work lately. Hopefully when the economy turns around all of this self promotion will pay off. Until that time we'll keep plugging away and hopefully we'll still be here when the smoke clears. I want to thank everyone here in Letterville for all your inspiration. In times like this it's good to have people who understand what your going through. For me I'm going to stick it out because it's all I've done for the last thirty years. If I was younger maybe it would be a different story.
posted
For the past three years, business here has been on the decline. For two years my wife, a stay-at-home mom, had a temporary job with a local acountant doing tax returns to help make ends meet. Last year she worked as an enumerator with the census bureau. This year, we decided to do something crazy...farming.
We have 20 acres, purchased mainly with money from a large sign project, which has sat almost unused for several years. So we took out a low interest loan from the FSA and began turning it into a GOAT FARM. I am getting quite a bit of remarks about my farmers tan, but otherwise have been enjoying myself immensely. We also have some income, from our small kennel, raising mini-dachsunds and beagles and, although our number of bookings is down as well, we still play music on weekends for churches, concerts, and bluegrass festivals etc.
Although I have done enough work on my Shopbot to pay it off and have begun to make a little money, I haven't built a sandblasted sign in over two years. But we finally closed the deal on one yesterday. We will be building another one of these for our city. So, Although we've had to fall back on other things to survive, I'm not ready to give up on the sign business just yet. Even though I'm sure we will bever get rich at doing it.
[ March 03, 2011, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Amazing posts. Thank you everyone. My wife and I are soaking it all up. I laid off my old freind of 18 years. I gave him a 4 week notice. I told him that if he lands a job, not to give me notice, just go and make $. He did that on Tuesday. He got the call to go back to work on the rigs the very next day. We had our goodbyes and then my wife and I cried for 15 minuted straight only to go to a bar and cried in our booth a little more Tuesday night. Of course, yesterday, with just the 2 of us, we had our phone ring (once or twice) which was warming to hear. I quickly remembered how to be versatile and have pltters and printers working, design and quote jobs, go to the hardware store for lumber, etc. I worked 12 hours yesterday and produced about $1600. Last night, my old friend called my wife and I. He was up North. He had just worked his first shift on the rigs. He called to tell us there was a reason why he left the rigs in the first place. We joked and asked if he was curled up in a corner sucking his thumb. He started to cry and told us he wanted to "come home". He would take a pay cut and reduce his hours, find another PT job, whatever it takes. All of our hearts are breaking. I am crying right now at my desk just thinking of the conversation. I told him to come home and we will all collectively go into PLAN K because A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,have already been expended. It is humbleing but, I think I am becoming a better man from this on going experience. I am surrounded by positivity from my loving wife and friends as well as the enourmour lift I am getting from this post. I am sorry for those of you in a similar situation. My old friend / employee is on his way to our shop right now (he got back at 3am last night) and we plan to give him a BIG HUG when he gets in here. Still no answer but, staying positive, thanks Neil. Thank you all. Now I gotta go dry my tears.
posted
Stick with it Corey, there's been plenty of times when I find it hard to 'keep Positive"... but we always get over the bump. Rock, Mountain, whatever... Looks like to me you have a great "Friend" there in your co-worker.. just do what you have to do to survive.. you know you can do it!
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Would be nice to have updates from people who posted here. Especially Corey.
In my case I have to admit that things have been crazy busy here. Had to get helps from from two of my former employees to get some jobs out the door. If it only could be like that all year round.
It's crazy how wind can turns so quickly!
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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This has been a good read. Thanks to all for your input. Enjoyed your post Karyn. Corey, hang in there. Having a good helper is one thing but having a good friend to work with is worth more than we can imagine. We don't realize what we miss until it's gone. Hopefully everything will work out for you and your wife.
In 1972 my sign company was established BC (before computers) and now works HC (hell w/ computers). Problem was I wasn't smart enough to save money through all those years. (Should have figured that out long ago 'cause I never met a man that got rich doing signs).
I do believe though that we as human beings still must follow our passion - whatever it is. It's tough when we get down and have to make difficult decisions. A little encouragement can go a long way to help sometimes. So give an encouraging word when you can and be thankful if your healthy. Because when you don't have your health…well....
-------------------- Ray Skaines League City, Tx www.srsigns.com Posts: 130 | From: League City, Texas | Registered: Mar 2003
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We almost closed up after 15 yrs. I know exactly how you feel. We were going to move then decided to stay. I went back to school to work on a degree and took on a couple jobs over the last year. The last one... the only one I could get that would lead to a good "career" was Dental Assistant. OMG! Never Again!
So, we are reworking the shop. Time management being cruitial to get under control. Communication with customer is crutial, etc... You have to get paid for everything. I suffered from burnout mainly due to poor time management. So with these few tweeks I think we'll be ok. I have some contacts for business management if I need them.
The world has changed and customers are demanding. Everyone is saying this. They can be rude too. I still have new work and have good customers along with pushy ones, etc... It's all about communication. Focus on positive and let the negative go. I try not to get all upset about pushy arrogant customers. Can't take anything personal.
After 15 years of working on my own, Going back into the "real world" really made me appreciate working from home. No commute, no work politics, I can go for a run when I need to clear my head, I can go to the bathroom when I want...LOL!! I can manipulate my schedule, etc.... No 25 year old giving me crap...LOL. I worked at Lowes for a bit... this 25 yr old manager was so wak... I don't remember being like that "to my elders" when I was 25....LOL. I'm an elder... what happened?!! LOL!!!
We got a line of credit,are crunching our pennies and we're building a pole barn on this new property and are going to close in the existing garage for my office/showroom. It's a good investment property. Great location and once I put my sign out I know I'll have more walk in. Again, time management!
I don't make a ton but I love my freedom. That is a wonderful thing in this day and age.
Good Luck! If you decide you want to start up again you can!! Maybe work from home. Keeps expenses waaaay down. You can always sell yourself again. Maybe look at a property where you can put out a sign. We are zoned R2 here. Can hang my sign. Gets attention.
A good website with good search engines is important if you want to grow too. That has been a great selling tool for me. I'm not super involved with community stuff but just enough. Too much politics there.
Best Wishes!! Remember Life is Short, make the best of what you have! Live simple. Enjoy the free things in life. They're the best!
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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Count yourself very blessed and fortunate to have a friend like you do, Corey. That's something you just can't buy.
Just an idea, but have you looked for a "niche"? Is there something in your area of the country(fishing, skiing, tourism,etc.) that you could cater to, and do it better than anyone else around there?
It's been very saddening to hear so many stories about business losses. I hate to see the craft that I love, and have devoted about 40 years of sweat and blood to, go by the wayside. But it's a sad statement that this is only one of many good professions that have succumbed to the computer. Great as this machine can be, it's been a death sentence to many businesses, that the computer can do the job faster and has cheapened many facets of it.
I consider myself blessed to be where I am now. Many years ago, I learned how to use most hand tools, learned to "make things", dig post holes, operate and use a boom, cut and weld, most forms of spray painting, hand letter and pinstripe, etc. I have a modest home, with little overhead, minimal competition, and can do pretty much what ever needs to be done.
I'm glad that I've been able to resist the urges to get into computerized routers, digital printers, and all that other costly stuff, since I can make a lot of it by hand. And some, I farm out. But I don't have to make XX number of bucks every week to survive....and I like it like that.
Since having my stroke a few months ago, life has taken on a slower pace; but thank God, I'm still able to do most of the work I love...just slower. But there again, I'm thankful that I'm not "under the gun" to have to produce. And finally being able to draw some social security helps a bit, too.
I can completely sympathize with those of you who are considering something else. I'm also deeply saddened by it. I know one day soon, I too will put the brushes down; but Lord willing, I'm going to keep doing my thing for awhile yet...and be able to ride off into the sunset, with a truckload of good memories of fun times, interesting work, and great friends. I'm happy I'm a signcrafter; wouldn't want it any other way.
Has anyone heard anything from/about Monte Jumper?
posted
Just an update from my neck of the woods. Business here has been very good for the last few months after a very long slow spell. Back up to 2 trucks a day plus some good sign work. Another good indicator is that the average price of the jobs we have been doing has gone up quite a bit. We got into the habit of giving the customer some nice extras at no extra charge since we had some time on our hands. This built up some goodwill and the nice jobs brought in some new customers looking for that better job.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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Doug and Glenn- I feel I have known you both for a lot of years- back to the original 4edge board. We have bled for 2 years also and I went a year without a check (fortunate my house/toys are paid for)but we have been so busy for the last 6 months that it is about to kill this old fart. So... what I am saying is... I am optimistic about the economy coming back. Good luck Gene email out of date- current sales*at*abcsignshop.com
posted
It's still a struggle here. M right hand man gave notice 3 weeks ago, and served his last day last week.
I will forge ahead with only part time help from my step daughter who will push her 12 hours weeks closer to 18 or so. I spent a good deal of the last week consolidating several areas of my shop to prepare for subdividing some space, and subleasing it. It is a sacrifice i wish I didn't have to make, but I feel that it is the lesser of evils.
Thanks for the encouraging words from many of you!
posted
Cory, your last entry was one of the most heartwarming posts I've ever read. It's my hope that plan K will work for all concerned. Your employee sounds like a total keeper.
Doug, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I truly hope things can turn around for you. I keep thinking of you as the guy who has it all. I mean, you're located in what most folks would call their dream location. I like your idea of downsizing abit... I hope that does the trick for now!
The one thing that has kept me (barely) afloat is having extremely low overhead and loyal customers to a fault. I don't know how I got so lucky but I'm eternally thankful.
I need to get serious about my next venture and using the slower time wisely is getting pretty critical. It's such a juggle...
posted
Thanks for the kind words Donna. I like to think I have it all too. Like my signature implies, I think we all "have it all" in a sense... but what matters is what we choose to use of it.
I use my natural tendency towards contentment quite often, and to a degree my flexibility to guide me & improve my lot in life. External forces have changed the game for me, but at least I remain content or better, most of the time, and seeking the right areas to be flexible feels like the path to survival for me.
The longer one path worked well, the easier it has been to become inflexible. That lesson has been taking longer to recognize, and correct, but the changes I am orchestrating right now feel exhilarating, and give me increased hope, passion and energy.
My definition of "survival" no longer needs to be a clear picture of arriving at a predetermined destination. I feel less like my life needs to be an intentional sculpture, and more like the wind, weather & waves of my life washing over me, will bring out the unique perfection of an old piece of driftwood or a river-polished rock.
Our good buddy old paint has really helped me put even more faith in that perspective this month.
And for the record Donna, from out here, as fortunate as you are, it never looks like luck had half as much to do with it as the choices you have made.
(& now that I think about it, it does look like choosing contentment & flexibility over forced control may be part of your path to survival too!)
posted
From Diane: Time management being cruitial to get under control. Communication with customer is crutial, etc... You have to get paid for everything. I suffered from burnout mainly due to poor time management.
Me in a nutshell. You guys are great. Can't believe the popularity of this post. It definately hit a mark.
Doug, you're great. You cannot stop external forces, just keep perservering and flow with "the flow".
How is it here??? Well, we are getting busier. It feels like those terrible 3 months never existed. Having said that, those 3 months have blown my passion for this trade (oh, and I had it!!) all to hell. We just came back from the ISA show that we had booked before our DEAD PERIOD. We stayed inside the Mandalay Bay like we did 2 years ago (when we bought our Summa DC4SX). We "ditched" the show this year. I could not bring myself to even think of going. We would be eating at the Mandalay Buffet and see soooo many sign people (we all look alike). I have to be honest and say that I felt frustrated in a "screw the show" kind of way. I turned our Vegas ISA show into just a Vegas Trip.
We are busier here but, are still selling the business..if we can. My wife wants to price it "to sell". We have had 2 business sellers appraise it. One is greedy and one is a realist.
1 quote is for about $245,000 the other is for $100,000. $100,000 is our present debt. I would like to just get it sold, pay off our debt, sell our house and use "that equity" (since our business has no equity)to move to Cali.
My dilemma is even with the low bid, I don't think it is sellable. My wife thinks so but, I think we need more of a system in place. The system now? Field the phone call and plunk it on Corey's desk! I want pricing for everything but, if I am the designer, quoter, where do I find time to systematize everyhting. It IS NEEDED but, how?? I feel that I should have a person following us all around taking notes and then inputting them into a spread sheet but, I guess I am just missing the "grey matter" to pull this off! I also feel that if we DO SELL the business, the newbies will ask "ME" (only) to stay back and show them the ropes. I think my wife would take the kids to Cali immediately and hope for me to get there quick but, I think I would be looking at at least 6 months before leaving.
I think we need a receptionist to take Lisas place and a designer / quoter to take my place so, I can "systematize everything" but, after the slow down, I don't believe I can afford to hire anyone else after taking the beating. If we were to hire a person to take my place and a person to take Lisas place, our business would then be more sellable. Heck, we could get other jobs and keep the business! Oh, but those terrible COLD, DEAD 3 months keep haunting me. It not only ruined the sign trade for me but, also, this Cold, Cold province of Alberta.
I hope I hear more responses. Please do not focus on the honest response that we made it to Vegas and ditched the ISA show. We 're just not there anymore....
posted
Hi Corey, which part of Cali are you looking at? Most of SoCal is a mess financially. It is a huge market but the state in general is really struggling which is affecting business across the board. If you want to discuss anything, feel free to drop me an email info@starrstudios.org I will help you with any info I can...
What was the average gross for the last 3 years? That is where you should price the business at. Make sure the asking price is above $100k. That way you have a buffer to work with when the buyer comes back with a counter offer.
As for hiring and time management, its going to depend on how you are set up. That said, my suggestion is to set your office hours for in the morning only. At 12noon, close the gate, take the phone off the hook and concentrate on production. Return calls at 4pm. Be sure to let your clients know of the hours and don't be afraid to tell them why (so you can get work done on time).
I had to do that a couple years ago when I was left working at the shop by myself while Mom spent time with father as his health failed. We weren't in the position to hire any help either for almost a year.
My assistant in our art department just left us last week so now I'm stuck doing her job plus mine. And on top of that, Mom has cut her hours back to just a few hours in the morning to spend more time with her mom who has been diagnosed with dementia.
Meanwhile, I still need to generate a minimum of $300k per year to meet our obligations.
You can let it run you ragged or you can form a plan and make it work. Its what I have to do and you can too.
[ May 03, 2011, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Check out signworld.org if you want an example of what people are paying to own an independent sign company. For $185,000 you get some basic equipment, software and training. It seems like a lot of money to pay for what you get. (What disappoints me is that there is little regard for the artistic design side of the business.) It's only about making money. If you want to sell your business I believe this is a good model to follow.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That's good solid advice Glenn. I admire your attitude and your drive. We are re-inventing our business right now and positioning ourselves for a brand new strategy. When we're done, we'll have some thing to sell besides me. This thread has been helpful in many ways in bringing focus to what we need to do. Stay tuned for the all new Comsign.
posted
Our real estate broker said the same thing Glenn did.
My customers are all saying the same things too... customers are bruital... sales can be tough. I'm even having issues with old good customers that I've bent over backwards for. Another lesson. Only bend over backwards IF you're GETTING PAID!
Good Luck!! You can make signs anywhere! You can start up again. I've heard of people moving across country, etc.. and starting over. If that's what you want to do you can.
Will be an intersting year for us all. I think we should all report back on this subject next year at this time.
Lastly, I think the people who are successful in this business are actually really good business professionals. They know how to hire, market, sell, schedule, etc... I'm learning.... slowly but surely. It's all hard work. Again.... time is money. I have to constantly keep myself from wasting time. That's the honest truth. The serious professional isn't as flightly... LOL. It's my worst trait in business... one I am diligently changing. If I don't, I'm only fooling myself. I hope to see serious results by the end of this year.
The other thing is I'm keeping track of every minute on a time sheet now. Just to see exactly where I waste time. (emails, technology, etc being the worst - DISCIPLINE! Turn it off!! lol!!) Also, it took us much longer to letter a truck and trailer last week than I thought! I thought 8 hours tops. wrong. See,.... that's my time learning. It's critical to run the schedule correctly.
With Dave working another job 4 days a week, it's really a serious thing. Time to bunker down... LOL.
Technology has changed everything. 15 years ago I had a day to mail the design, etc... Now it's email the design and they want it the next day. Again, Art of Communication, reminding them that it's 2 weeks from Design Approval... not the day after... it's on the contract... yadda yadda yadda. Alot of CYA.
OK, my rant is over... lol.
Have a great week!!
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Have you thought about selling some of the clientbase to lettervillians? Some of it may be conducive to others nearby or not so nearby, if you decide to go that way also.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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