posted
You know, I really hate to be picky ... but there are some things that bug me and I have tried to educate my clients in how to state sign measurements properly so there is no confusion.
Yes we refer to sheets of material as 4' x 8', but when it comes to signage, the width is quoted first, then the height. W x H is a mathematical formula and it is an industry standard.
Just like we say, 'Bride & Groom' - 'Salt & Pepper' - 'Black and White', etc. - there are standards that are used - we just don't say them backwards. My other pet peeve is people who refer to the ceiling as the roof, use 'loose' when they really mean 'lose', 'unthaw' instead of 'thaw' and the very often (especially on this BB) mistaken use of 'your' and 'you're' which of course is a conjunction for 'you are' ... I've even heard people use the word 'height' as 'heighth', which drives me crazy up one more rung of the ladder.
Anyway, enough ranting... it was a recent post that sparked this topic.
This is quoted from a Google search: 'WHAT COMES FIRST? WIDTH OR HEIGHT? I had a conversation with a fellow sign-maker recently that turned into a battle of wits. It was fun. No harm, no foul. We were both trying to convince the other of whether width or height comes first in the world of 2D measurements.
Thus, the inspiration for this article.
Whether you’re into a building project and ordering windows, or designing the perfect tradeshow exhibit, providing accurate measurements is mandatory.
However, the one thing that plagues the world of measurements is orientation.
Let’s take an 8 foot by 4 foot banner. Which way is it oriented? Landscape or Portrait? Tall or wide? Is that measured east to west, or north to south? There are many approaches to resolving references to orientation. But what indicators are there that will set your perspective in stone? What is the standard?
What comes first?
The Graphics’ industry standard is width by height (width x height). Meaning that when you write your measurements, you write them from your point of view, beginning with the width.
That’s important. When you give us instructions to create an 8×4 foot banner, we’ll design a banner for you that is wide, not tall.
So, who says width by height is “The Standard”? I can break it out by layout programs such as Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator, or Indesign. They all use the width by height order to determine orientation. But, let’s take it down to a more natural level. Which way do you read (assuming you read English literature)? Left to right, first, then down the length of the page.'
There... I feel better already! and... hopefully I haven't spelled anything incorrectly or used words in the wrong context! I am not perfect, and I am always willing to take criticism and learn from my mistakes.
This is not intended to be hurtful in any way. It is for the betterment of the use of the English language. Perhaps no one has taken the time to point out the difference.
Thanks for listening.
-------------------- Lori Wilcox Tabby Ink Hinton, Alberta Canada Ph 780-865-4305 Posts: 306 | From: Hinton, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Graphic Industry Standards tend toward being print oriented and have a two-dimensional bias. However, we do function in a three-dimensional world, so while those guidelines have some value when dealing with two dimensional formats, what are the proper way of expressing dimensions when dealing with a spherical shape?
I've lettered things like refinery storage units and basketballs that were spherical. Width and height are the same, but there's an element of distortion that has to be dealt with. I once had to letter an Orange Crush Logo onto a pop-up trailer that was made to resemble a huge orange. Patterns were out of the question, and projection didn't work because of the 3-dimensional surface.
Ultimately, I managed to solve that problem, and later on, I'll reveal the solution that worked for me. However, just for some creative exercise, I'd be interested in hearing how some of the creative thinkers here might have tackled such a project.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I never assume which is which so I ask "how tall is it from top to bottom and how long is it?"
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
In Geometry class I was taught "rise over run" for graphing the slope of a line. This would equate to dictating the height, then the width of an object. My brain has been stuck on this ever since and I have always had to reverse myself in design programs and supplies catalogs.
posted
I always draw a picture of size along with the dimension, so every body knows what, and when i had sales people they also did same, no question about what W & H was
posted
I get it, you ought to try using Estimate 2.0 in different modules. The layout is different in each module. In vinyl signs, it is width and height. In thermal printing for example, it is width and length.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hiya Lori, As the line between the printing and sign industry blurs, things become a little more confusing because of the differences between the way we work.
When I was in the printing industry (newspaper & magazine), we always called out width first then the height.
However, in the sign business, I was taught to call out height first then width. Now that many more shops are doing 3-D, things are getting even more complicated because you have X, Y & Z coordinates. X being horizontal, Y being vertical and Z being depth.
To avoid any confusion when talking with a client, I always say "X tall" by "X wide" by "X deep". It may not be the right way, but it works for me.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Lori, I have always used height by the width (i.e. 4' x 8')like our substrates are called. Just makes more sense to me. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Seeing as I own and operate a router I should know this stuff... but its like a lot of other things I should know. My head is so full every time I push something new in something old falls out the other side.
These days I stick to sweating the important stuff... like knowing the names of Phoebe's stuffed animals that she plays with at our house.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Maybe it's like the pants thing. 26 waist 34 lenght.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It has long been the tradition in the fine arts world to give height first, width second.
But when giving or taking an order for something nothing makes sense except to specify ht, w, d.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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in the building trade downunder, we always specify timber by the biggest sectional figure first. eg 4" x 2", 3 x 2, 6 x 2, 8 x 2, 3 x 1.5, etc.(i.e. the skinniest bit secondly, no matter which way you're going to stand it.
It always struck me as weird that in North America, you usually call them two by fours, instead of four by twos, but then you also drive on the wrong side of the road, so that explains your weirdness, I guess...
With ordering corro (we call it corflute), the first figure is the direction in which the flutes run. We specify it in metric, even if imperial sizes are used, so a 3 x 2 ft has the flutes 3 ft long, and a 2 x 3 ft corro sheet has the flutes across the narrower dimension-the width, irrespective of which way you'd going to nail it up.
With sheets of steel, alupanel etc, it's still the biggest measurement first. 8 x 4 ft, 10 x 5 ft etc. The make sure you work out whether it's standing upright, or long. Banners, 12 x 3 ft, whether wide or tall, just clarify 'landscape or portrait' if you think they know what you're talking about!
I don't think it's standard as such- more of a convention.
Ah, yes, it's x,y & z on the router...
As for hating the mixing of your/you're I agree totally!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Rochon: Checkers, wouldn't that be x tall, by y wide, by z deep? lol
Sure Bob, just go ahead and muddy the water even more
As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. So, if the sign is worth a darn, I'll make sure the client signs off on the picture (proof) before I produce it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I will ask the customer, "Do you mean vertical or horizontal? when referring to a measurement. If that confuses them, I just draw the shape on the work order that I'm filling out!
And yes Lori, your welcome. (I know it's you're, just trying to be cute).
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Ian, your guys are down under. Our lumber is the opposite. We buy 2x4's, 4x6's, 1x3's.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oops, we also post twice just to make sure.
[ January 20, 2011, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Bill Modzel ]
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
When I ask the lumberman for a 2 x 4 and he asks me how long I want it, I never know whether he he's taking about the size or the time I will keep it.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I must be kinda old...I still think a 2x4 is a 2x4.(I know, it is a lot smaller in dimension now) It is a chunk of lumber that is usually 8' long but available in other lengths too.
And a 4x8 is still a 4'x8' plywood panel. Yes you can hold it vertical or horizontal, but it is still a 4x8!!!
Any time I did a layout I sent or gave the client a layout plan. Vertical is vertical and horizontal is horizontal.
I had a friend here in Mexico ask me if I could do a simple printed poster for her that could be printed on a legal sized sheet of paper and laminated..I did it as if the paper was vertical...She loved it but said...No, I meant horizontal...No prob, I just rearranged and re-sized stuff and did it that way. No biggie, it was one retiree helping another with some volunteer stuff.
I guess communication is key?
(edited for typos)
[ January 20, 2011, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I'm making a shingle for a CPA today who wants it "1.5 foot wide by 1 foot wide." Might send him a proof first .
[ January 21, 2011, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Frank Smith ]
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
I've even heard people use the word 'height' as 'heighth', which drives me crazy up one more rung of the ladder.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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