posted
Yeh, that's right. We have recently considered making our sign shop a "By Appointment Only" sign shop. It does seem sort of like a catch22 though. Us sign shops are always trying to find out "where the bleeding is" and how to stop it. One of the worst culprits are (not to slam our customers) our "walk in customers". When I spend the majority of my week planning installations, applications, designing and quoting on more "Niche Stuff", it appears that all the Coroplast Customers, small banner customers, auto magnetics customers eetc. are the people that walk through the door. Again, not to bag on a certain clientel but, we find that we cannot focus on the nice project we are doing that is due in 2 weeks when there are 20 small interuptions each day...most of these $100-$200 customers know their order is small and do not see why they cannot get it in a 1 day turnaround. Now, as much as I will quickly let them know not to expect it that quick, there are still all those interuptions each day. Should we just simply STOP doing the bread and butter jobs? Stop focusing 80% of our thought on 20% of business but rather, focus 20% of our thought on 80% of our business?
posted
I'm with you, Corey. It does seem like the average corro customer takes way too much time away from the jobs I enjoy doing, only to try and beat me up on pricing and deadlines. I'd be interested in seeing how it goes.
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
In our shop we do only high end dimensional work. Our signs out on the road and all the work our customers have on display speak of that. Our shop is in a rural area (adjacent to a small town) and is at the very back of our residential property,almost 400 feet off the road. There is no sign that says we offer service by appointment only but that is how we mostly operate.
Traffic off the street (especially tire kickers) is rare. Those who who do come looking for a bargain sign are quickly and courteously directed elsewhere.
Because of how we operate our business interruptions are rare... perhaps two or three in a week at most. We don't get many phone calls from these type of folks either.
It certainly works for us.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well I could honestly say that for over 50 years I have been a ' By Appointment Only ' pinstriper and made a terrific living doing it that way and in the past, my shops were only for my enjoyment
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
On my sign is says "Walk Ins Welcome-Appointments Preferred" I do prefer appointment only but manys the time I've gotten a job from a walk-in while waiting for an appointment client who doesn't show. It's your call. Today I had a guy come in with a pic of a hand lettered trailer he'd done, uglier than a hatful of @ssholes, who had the gall to b!tch that the phone number on my sign was too small. I only put it there (very discreetly) as a nicety to people who pull into my driveway who wish to make an appointment. Bread and butter is pretty tasty during the lean winter months here. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
It has Kinda Worked for us.. I am just not sure if it was based on Moving the Shop Back to the House though.
By Moving we eliminated about 50% of the Piddly work and not being listed in the Phone Book the other 50%.
It rather nice as we keep Steady now with the better work but not running around in a panic trying to get 50 jobs done at once.
I have seen a drastic change in the Bottom line also. Granted we're not doing $50K a month but we do seem to see more at the end of the day with the work we are doing and slowly moving back in the direction I envisioned when I first started. Strictly doing Dimensional and Glass work. We still do a fair amount of New Lighted work as it is still very profitable and I sub out all the Maintenance work..
Sometimes you just need to step back and reinvent yourself and that is a very Humbling Experience.
posted
Our shop is off the beaten path and in a small industrial area. We don't get many tire kickers, but I still experience a lot of "unscheduled detours" on a regular basis.
One thing that has helped me is using EstiMate. I don't have to be here to quote every job, particularly the BnB stuff. Pretty much everyone here can do it.
I'm available to any walk-in in the morning, however I am by-appointment-only after 12noon. The exception is when a client walks in, the employee greeting him/her has "qualified" them as needing some hi-end work. Only then will I stop what I'm doing and talk to them.
If a client asks, I explain its just a matter of time management and the need to be able to deliver on time.
posted
Must be nice to be able to rely on that High end Customer base all the time... does it work for you 365 days a year? If I had to rely on that, I'd be out of business.. of course my clientel is completely different than some of you, here Vinyl is king, and we have the staff to work it.. but if you work alone, and you do have that market Niche that you can rely on, all the time, then I'd say go for it. But what about the slower times, and there will be slower times, what do you do then? I know that here, walk ins do take up time, but a lot of times, those walk ins become Phone ins.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I am entirely mobile and do not have a store front. I service my clients by a 'walk in to see them' mode. I get a few jerk calls who want a bid on my coming out 20 miles and estimating ppainting one 4x4 window with a whole raft of copy. I tell them to send me the copy and a pic of the window and they usually vanish.
A fellow sign painter asked me if I had ever tried a cheap toll free number for my signs. It made me think about a funny deal that happened to me. I had one for a couple of years for $7 a month and never got one real call on it. I did get quite a few misdialed numbers as my number was similar to a denture repair lab somewhere. People would call up and ask when their dentures would be done. After numerous wrong numbers, my better half got the best of me. I started simply telling them that they were already shipped out to their office on the return form. They asked what the ‘office’ part was as most were just seniors who did not have an office. I told them their office at the San Diego Zoo and if they wanted their dentures back! Talk about some pi$$ed off people! The reactions were absolutely priceless. I laughed and then told them they had the wrong number.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Slower times are the perfect opportunity to build more high end samples and push the envelope creatively. These in turn bring us more high end work. This is what my CHALLENGE 2010 is all about.
When we are busy we go for it and make good money. When it is slow it is time to take me time and recharge those batteries.
I find it interesting that those doing the niche work keep busy and become known for that niche (high priced work) far and wide. Those doing more main stream work seem to sell much fewer high end jobs. While it certainly can't be done overnight we should be working towards the type of signs we want to do and not always simply doing what comes in the door.
I firmly believe we can become anything we wish to be if we not only dream but also do something every day that brings us closer to our goal.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We have been busy for the 97th week in a row and it's because we take on anything under the sun. I am just in a thought process right now that I would like to be "happy" and not so "frustrated". Perhaps slowing down to a not so rapid pace, and getting the tire kickers/ "I found it lower" kind of people out of my hair would help me be more happy in my passion as a sign guy. I think of the small jobs as ANTS and the best way to manage them is to get them quoted, designed quickly so I can focus on the large quotes. The trouble is the ANTS never stop coming. The day soon comes when my big quote customer calls wondering where his quote and designs are. It's like having a Mcdonalds that sells .59 cent hamburgers and also Filet Mignion with Wine and everthing in between. McDonalds found their Niche, and I can too!
posted
Being busy does not necessarily mean you are making money on all your jobs.
It's possible to spend just as much time selling, designing, fabricating. delivering, installing and collecting your money on a big project as a small one.
In my book, the selling, delivering, installing and collecting the money are the parts I don't much enjoy. I try and minimize those parts.
I prefer to deal with a very limited number of customers each year, doing fewer jobs for a lot more money. It's less stressful by far, the client training takes less time and the work is more enjoyable.
My goal is not to merely keep the shop busy but rather to find the best jobs that both pay well and give me lots of satisfaction.
Life is far too short to simply work for a living.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Jillbeans: uglier than a hatful of @ssholes,
OMG, that was freakin' funny....glad I didn't have anything to drink...
Back on subject. I have gone more or less to appointment only type work, but not by my own choice.
When the economy hit the crapper, I ended up getting a job (working with autistic kids, no less), to make ends meet. With that, I started going asking my then customers to make an appointment. It has worked out rather well.
And like Dan, I have pretty much stopped doing the buisness card, magnetic, quicky banners,(except for large multiples, and quick stuff for family) and started focusing on dimensional work. By offering something different than what my competitors offer, I am really starting to get busy.
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Life is far too short to simply work for a living.
Great observation Dan.
And life is too short to work on the cheap. Charge what you deserve.
And...While you might think you are invincible and can work forever, it isn't true. Some day you will get tired. Plan for the future too!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
No storefront here, no walk-ins. No Yellow Pages. It's either referral or word of mouth. Im glad sometimes I wonder if I'm missing the "BIG JOBS" but then I doubt it. I still prefer beating the bushes and choosing what clientele to go after
I have no patience for car tags, yard sale signs and people off the streets wanting to waste time
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
We have very few people who walk through the door wanting a sign without calling first. One of the main reasons is that we are off the beaten path - that is why I chose this place. You probably are not going to find us by accident.
Most of the time we get a phone call asking about signs and prices. If the first question is price I am rather confident that we will not get the project, so my goal is not to spend a lot of time explaining why our prices are so high. An invitation is extended for them to come see us.
We do a little bit of everything, but our major work is dimensional. The majority of our clients are repeaters and the new ones normally come from word of mouth.
While we do not advertise "by appointment only", that is usually the way we work. They contact us by email or phone and a time is set up for them to come in or for me to go there. Most of the time we operate by email with repeat customers.
The "Happy Birthday" banners are sent to friends in the area that are better at that type work.
With time you get a reputation - either positive or negative. Hopefully, ours is that we do a good job but are expensive. It also means that we are not loaded down with "busy work" that keeps us running but doesn't make us any money.
You could count all the walk-in customers we get a month on one hand and still have several fingers left to pick your nose. Now, to some that may be a bad thing, but for us it allows me to concentrate on what I want to do.
As Dave said, there comes a time when you get tired and just don't feel like doing everything that comes through the door.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I totally agree (Dan, Dave, Raymond) LIFE IS TOO SHORT. I am pretty sure people see us as the sign co that does good work and that is expensive. I know a $68 2' x 3' x 4mil Coro sign is being sold by my "home based competitors" for $18 but, people still get them through us. When they don't, I know it is not the kind of customer for me. Having said that, this passed July, we had produced $100,000 more than the previous year. Profit??? No! I do not want to work 25% harder than I already am only to not see any $$benefits$$. How can we be higher priced, busier than previous years and yet, not see the profit?
posted
"uglier than a hatful of @ssholes" just made me giggle out loud! Thanks Jill!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Sometimes those little signs can turn into something big down the road. Even a smallish customer can not only be loyal but can give many referrels as well. A minimum charge posted on your counter may make those itty-bitty jobs worth it. On the hand if your door says appointment only your wali-in types won't get as frustrated, and some will call. Do you want to "take on" all comers? We really can't do it all anyway, do what makes you happy.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Jill, where did you learn to talk like that.
[ October 29, 2010, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Paul Jordan ]
-------------------- Paul Jordan Jordan Signs http://jordansigns.com.au paul@jordansigns.com.au Australia "We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing" George Bernard Shaw, I think. Posts: 166 | From: Caringbah, N.S.W., Australia | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Paul, probably from some guy who, once when we were looking at some pictorial work on a sign panel, said "Looks like a bloody puddle of mud"! Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I learned my lesson one day when an older husband & wife couple came into sign shop inquiring about cutting vinyl to etch stones. It was kind of a long dragged out converstation but I was trying to be very patient even tho' I was getting ticked about them wasting my time. Turned out that she was the senior buyer for a paper mill an hour away. After that we got all their work! I always remember this when getting peeved with walk in customers. Ya just never know!
-------------------- Colleen Henderson Signs Now, Thunder Bay, ON signsnow@tbaytel.net Posts: 140 | From: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Yes Colleen...You never know when doing a seemingly minor job can turn into a valuable long term relationship.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Great post. I have had the same frustration all year and have had many interruptions during the day with walk-ins, phone calls, etc. I told my part-time help that I was not available if anyone calls or comes in so I can get some work done!
I will return calls after lunch and then get back at it but it seems everyone that calls want to only talk to me! They think the girls are just secretaries and don't know anything about signs.
I have begun the long road to making samples of the work I want to do for my showroom area. I will eventually get rid of the low-paying, time wasting jobs and focus on what I love to do.
This is why Letterville exists and I am so grateful for many of you that I have met at meets. This post really hit home and I have the same feelings that many here have about this topic.
Thanks to people like Dan and Ray, we can continue to better ourselves and enjoy the journery in the process.
Best of "Luck" to all of you, and I mean that Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Corey Wine: 20 small interuptions each day...most of these $100-$200 customers know their order is small and do not see why they cannot get it in a 1 day turnaround.
If those figures are right, I'd say that those customers would well warrant a new employee or two($2000-$4000 a day?)especially if you are charging decently enough to make it profitable which it sounds like you are Fill your showroom with high end samples, there is no better advertising and if you have "captive" customers coming to your showroom all the better.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
"I think of the small jobs as ANTS and the best way to manage them is to get them quoted, designed quickly so I can focus on the large quotes. The trouble is the ANTS never stop coming."
Then cut back on the candy.
I get hammered by smaller jobs as well. My solution...down and dirty simple designs, nothing elaborate. They want fast and cheap, that's what they get. I'm not going to spend 2 hours talking about a half dozen step stake signs and another 2 hours trying to redesign their logo on them. Most jobs like this get whacked out in a hour and they get billed accordingly. One mention of a discount and it's a polite buh-bye and back onto the big job.
It's a dance. You don't want to alienate these smaller customers. Many are the foundation you built your business on, but when it comes time to do it, saying no may be the better decision...for both of you. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I work from my home office (18 month old) and go to the shop for installs. Just me, no help.
I take appointments. Our house is just down the road and I have a number on the shop door to call me if they want to have an immediate appointment. I can usually get there in less than 5 minutes (including packing the baby up.)
My "tire kickers" call. I don't have a phone book ad, and don't advertise. Callers find me via my website, or 90% word of mouth.
I have samples and a portfolio and tell them what each item sold for. I have a standard pricing for coro signs, business cards and design time. I give them the sheets and they can decide. Everything includes design time (up to a certain point).
Lead time is variable. I try not to do any signs "while the customer waits". Hated that when I worked at other shops. They either have to come back later in the day or wait until it is done and I call them back.
Tire kicker this AM. 12 x 18 parking signs...needs 4...cut vinyl... $22.50 each. Haven't heard back, but also, didn't wast more than 1 minute 40 seconds on the deal either.
I always have a pricing schedule for work. I do the "price game" first, produce an estimate/contract to be signed and THEN I design it, after 1/2 of the money is in my paw.
Since I started this way of thinking, I waste a lot less time and get PAID!
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Wow, great responses. Steve, you seem to have an identical "view" on your day to day grind. My buddy (not a sign guy) cannot understand why I would get rid of the small guy. After all these posts, I am still on the fence. I have a "higher end" signage showroom and perhaps I can go full steam ahead on the "niche market" but, may ride it out until the new year. Yes, Steve, customers call looking for me and only me, I don't know most of them but, they know me. I have messages taken and some days...the 3 -4 of us here simply lock the doors to get our tight schedule met.
I "DO" understand the small customer can have a lot of "promise" for the future or, has a neighbour that likes the small work we accomplished for his neighbour and wants a whack of fancier stuff produced.
20 per day 5 day work week Average sale $150 ($100+$200/2) 50 weeks per year (not counting 2 weeks vacation)
$150x20x5x50=$750,000
I'd say that's a decent amount of revenue: probably too much to simply turn away.
As long as you're not saying that people are coming in asking for $300 worth of work and only willing to pay $150, then I'd say you should hire someone to take care of this walk-in traffic.
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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