posted
I thought my fellow signmakers would find this information on a failed project both interesting and informative....This beautiful new $1.65 Million Wayfinding signage project began failing within days - a horrible situation for sure.
Below are three links to articles printed in the Asheville Citizens Times newspaper.
posted
If they were stupid enough to spend an average of $6000.00 a piece for 300 signs in the first place, why should they be surprised that they got shafted? The largest sign I saw couldn't have been much larger than a 4'x8' vertical aluminum panel. Mind you a couple or three of those kiosk type directory signs might bring in 6k but something's rotten in denmark here. I'd like to hire that sign company's saleman,..he hit a homerun on this one,....for that kind of money they can do those directional panels two or three times and still make a hefty profit,...how many digital printers can you purchase with 1.8 million, at least a half dozen or so,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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It looks like a 1.8 million dollar project to me... especially the parking ID and large freestanding ID signs...
Having done quite a few city wayfinding projects myself, I have not heard of any process other than screen printing with 3M's translucent ink process that will last any amount of acceptable time. I ask from time to time about this, and no one suggest digitally printing reflective street signs because they do not last as long as the screen printed ones. The problem with screen printing a huge panel like that is the color can sometimes look a little mottled.
Bad spec, poor fabrication choice on the sign shop's part, bad material, bad ink or poor install... a lot can happen. Someone is going to be eating a lot of peeling vinyl...
[ July 15, 2010, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I think Ben might have it right... or could it be... that the 3M reflective is crap... just like the 3M reflective I used to use years ago, that completely delaminated from the glue..
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It looks like the reflective is tight on there though. We were just guessing that what happened was those reflective panels often come with a clear plastic protective sheet that is SUPPOSED to be removed before the signs are lettered, just like you alumalite, etc. does. Nobody told the guys in the shop, "Hey, don't forget to take that liner off." and they lettered them all up and sent them out. OOPS!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
That picture is exactly what happens if you forget to take off the plastic sheeting before applying prints. Unfortunately I know this from experience (just not on a $1.65 million job.) I could see where the sign shop would be reluctant to admit this is what happened, but the positives are that at least the signs won't need to be redesigned, and at least the print is the only thing failing (so it's not a total loss.) Still, this has to be an expensive lesson to learn.
posted
agree. That is total failure. It has to be the liner...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I did it on a real estate sign. It was an 18x24 .040 aluminum sheet that you set in one of those frames. I covered both sides with prints. One side still had the plastic on it. A few weeks later the customer came back in and said the graphics failed on the one side but not the other. It's one of those mistakes that sticks with you, and I haven't messed that up since.
posted
I wonder how long they expected their digital-print-on-clear over the reflective to last anyway...?
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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But the signage in question is current? as in 2010?
How does Kelly's 2008 picture relate?
Sorry if I missed something Kelly.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Dave, I have no clue why the year 2008 show up in the corner of the photo in Kelly's post. These signs were just installed a few weeks ago. If you click on this link by John Boyle, published July 3, 2010 12:15 am - you will see the published photo. http://m.citizentimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2010307030033
-------------------- Debra Carr Sign Crafters 502 S. Main Street Hendersonville, NC 28791 Posts: 82 | From: Hendersonville, NC | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
That is just a direct link to a picture in one of the links Debra posted, I suspect the photographer has a watermark that needs to be updated that automatically goes on all his/her photos.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
So....300 didn't all get done at one time. They had to be stacked up around the shop in various stages of production. You're telling me that none of the signs were showing signs of failure when they were being installed?
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
We were JUST there on June 9th. I remarked how nice the signs looked downtown...I didn't notice any failure then...but again, it wasn't 100+ degrees that week... only mid to upper eighties...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
BTW, why didn't they use a NC co? Why Pennsylvania? Their hotel tax going to another state...nice...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ben Diaz: My guess is they forgot to take the plastic off before they put the vinyl on.
I would agree with Ben...I've seen this happen before with polycarb on a job I took over from another sign company...a little picking and the protective film came right off...with the graphic.
-------------------- Scott Eckland Chelsea Signs web: chelseasigns.com email: scott@chelseasigns.com 734.475.9704 Posts: 198 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Sauls: I hurt for them. this is so sad.This poor guy went from the job of a lifetime to losing it all. I'll bet he even went in debt to do it.
If all they've got to do is repair the faces they should be okay. It's gonna hurt but hopefully it's not a business killer.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
...this trick can also be used when screenprinting on plexi or metal blanks...washes off easy...just peel.
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
The tremendous cost of this failed project can most likely be traced back to one of the newspaper articles, saying the job was "a collaboration of various government and public organizations"...to that effect.
Sorta like those 'shovel-ready' construction job signs seen along many federal highways, that our gov'mint shelled out over 7 grand apiece for....
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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"The 3M Corp. warranties signs made with 3930 and its own vinyl covering, but in this case a clear film from another manufacturer went over the 3930 and apparently failed..."
And this is the exact reason why I will not warranty a job when 2 different material manufacturers are used. However, even this is not a guarantee of success.
Whoever looses on this one, I'll have to ask, was it worth saving a few cents per square foot of material?
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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