posted
First off, I know what I did wronge and it will not happen again. I was doing a favor for what I thought was a friend, but turned out he is nothing but a thief. I designed a job for his van to be lettered and he took the design to another shop to have them do it cheaper. I even told him after he said his wife wanted him to shop around that my design cannot be used and If he brings me the estimates from the other shops that I would even adjust my price to help him out. Did I say he was suppose to be a friend. I saw his van today with my design. I have finally calmed down. Should I bill him for the time or burn the van down where it sits. Joking about burnning, I think. If he does not pay do I have a leg to stand on legally, or do I take this as lesson learned, I have no friends.
-------------------- Buren Harrelson Vinyl Ink Whiteville,NC Posts: 162 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2008
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First thing: call the guy and tell him you saw his van with your design - his response should point you in the right direction of what to do next. Give him a chance to make it right. If he doesn't, and you don't have some kind of documentation that would hold up in court..........
BURN, BABY, BURN
(I'm kidding of course)
sorta.......
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I like Sonny's idea of calling him and letting him lead the way. I would remind him, if things go badly, that HE has more to lose than you do...his reputation!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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How good of a friend is this guy? Maybe he might have thought that since you were his friend, buddy, chum, that you wouldn't have charged him so much. Maybe he got a little peed and went somewhere else. So what'd he do? Show up your place with the new lettering job to show it off and show you how he got it done cheaper? If it were me, and that was my friend, buddy, pal, I'd tell him the only reason why the job looked nice because of my design and that he at the very least owes me a very nice steak and lobster dinner, plus wine and dessert. But that's only if he was my friend. Not a friend,,,bill him for the design.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3814 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I had a similar experience not long ago. I did a bunch of free work for a "friend" that was starting a business. I did my best to help him in every way I could, with the hope that he would eventually use me for paying jobs when his business was more stable. Every opportunity he had to give me a paying job, he would give it to someone else. I finally told him to take a hike and not ever call me again. He had the brass to ask for copies of the digital files! nnnnNOT!!!!
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Lots of gray hair (and missing hair) probably makes my advice null and void...but, I would just forget it and get on with life. Lesson learned and the tuition paid.
You could call and express you disappointment and such but you're probably not going to get any dollars from him no matter how many legal strings you pull. A lawyer may make some money, but you probably won't.
Most of us have been there and done that. And most of us learn from it and make sure we don't do it again. But, letting it burn a hole in your stomach is not worth it.
Years ago I just began to mark up such situations to my own stupidity and went on to the next job. I sleep a lot better, too.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There was a word in Alicia's post that stuck out to me and seemed very appropriate. 'CHUM'.... down here, 'chum' is bait that you throw into the water to attract sharks......
Hey. I just thought of a solution.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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After a similar situation many years ago, a lawyer friend said it's probably worth a couple hundred bucks to be rid of someone like that.
-------------------- Eric Elmgren ericsignguy@comcast.net A & E Graphic Signs Park Ridge, IL "The future isn't what it used to be" -Yogi Berra Posts: 192 | From: PARK RIDGE, ILLINOIS | Registered: Aug 2009
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Deep breath. Another deep breath. (repeat as necessary. Then do like Raymond says.
Been there - done that in Yarrow.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yeah, that ship has sailed. He rode by and I saw it. My wife went to see about a job for us and saw the van and took pictures of it to see that it was our design to where we did not finish perfecting it until it was going to be cut, and the imperfections was even on the van. How much of an idiot is he and the other shop for not cleaning up the artwork. $200 cheaper he said. My wife said that is because they did not have any design time involved. He responded, "I give away designs all of the time". He does construction. Needless to say after that remark he want be coming back on my street anymore. The other sign shop should of known better, we refuse work that people have taking the time to do. Unless noted we can.
-------------------- Buren Harrelson Vinyl Ink Whiteville,NC Posts: 162 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2008
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Write him a bill. If he doesn't pay it, hit him with a cease and desist order for using your copyrighted design...and remove him from your Christmas card list post haste.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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One other thing.....Call the other sign shop and ask them why they used your copyrighted design without your permission. Be professional about it. Then, if you don't get a satisfactory answer send them a bill too.
posted
Glenn beat me to it. That's exactly my thought too. The other sign shop is just as guilty as your former friend. Even if you throw an idle threat at them, they may finally think twice about reproducing your designs in the future.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Call him and tell him he made a mistake and could he please make some amends. If he hangs up on you, then his van might get parked in the wrong spot sometime and we all know what happens then.
Face to face, then if not resolved, lawyers, and then if not resolved, screwball!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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OK, I'll play devils advocate here... that's what I like to do....Is this just a layout? Was there a Logo Designed? Was there any custom designed lettering, a one of? This has happened to me countless times, so now I just get a small deposit, say $50, That usually weeds out the riftraft.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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How aggravating this is to happen to you. And from someone you trusted as a friend. It is no wonder that many sign people charge "sketch deposits." Then at least their design time is covered. Many do not even let sketches leave their shop.
You asked if you have a leg to stand on legally. Well, I would certainly not hesitate to bill someone for design time. Who knows? His conscious might move him to pay. It would be little effort on your part. A second step might be to write a "cease and desist" letter, demanding payment and that the design not be used, threatening legal action. If you have a lawyer in the family willing to write the letter for free, that would be nice. But would it be actually worth paying a lawyer to do it? I would be surprised if it cost less than a hundred dollars. And would it be worth further legal action?
Here are some things I learned in paralegal class about copyright protection: First, you are protected from the moment the design was created and "fixed" in tangible form, whether on paper or on your hard drive. Technically, you don't have to do anything to have copyright protection. Sounds great, doesn't it? But to sue for infringement successfully, your copyright has to be registered first, with the US Copyright Office. This costs 65 dollars using the mail-in form, or 50 dollars using an online form with bar codes that you print out and mail in. Or you can do it entirely online for 35 dollars. You send them the fee and a "deposit," which is what they call a copy of your artwork. It can be a jpeg if you are doing it online. You get an email acknowledging receipt. And though they say they count your registration as starting from the time they receive your application, it takes around six months (according to their website) to process and send you a certificate, although you can get expedited processing for 760 dollars. If you file for infringement before you get your certificate of registration, will you win? The (Federal) courts have split on this, so there's no guarantee.
If you file for registration before an infringement occurs, you're supposed to be able to collect attorney fees and "statutory" damages, which can be a lot, assuming you can prove the infringement was willful, and assuming you win the judgement. But if you file after the infringement, you can only collect "actual" damages and you pay for the lawyer. I would expect the value of actual damages (a design fee?) to be dwarfed by the lawyer's bill.
No one likes to be the victom of theft. It stings, even when the amount is not huge. I hope you can make it back on a nice job somewhere down the line, Buren.
Brad in Kansas City
Here's a link to the US Copyright Office site if anybody's interested in reading a little. You might note that some of the most recent copyright legislation involves so-called "orphan works." Many see this as a step backward for artists in the US.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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At 71 I have no patience or sympathy for a thief. Wait 1 year. Cheap aluminum turkey roasting pan. Two cans charcoal lighter Charcoal lighter into pan. Ignite charcoal lighter. Push charcoal light under truck with broom handle. He will have "trimmed" more "friends" by then.
And I bet you think I'm just kidding....
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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A couple of years ago, this woman asked if I could do her real estate signs. She sent me the designs. I reconized the designer/signshop who did the oringinal design. I emailed her back and pointed out to her the copywrite clause at the bottom of the design. Never heard from her again. Gotta put that copywrite thingy in the designs we do.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3814 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I would call and let him know he sucks and you dont appreciate him doing that and screw him as a freind.
secondly I would spank myself for sending out a file that could be easily reproduced. i send out low res jpegs out just so crap like this wont happen OR it would be difficult to reproduce. we have all done this in the past for sure
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
The jpgs are a great idea, Bruce. Our problem is uneducated clients. When we make no effort to put conditions on our designtime upfront. I have been there too. You may wish to consider the hand-drawn conceptual rough as a bridge between having nothing to present verses expensive investments in computertime before a deposit is recieved. I would never tell anyone they suck or screw them as a friend. Forgiveness will be recieved largely in the measure we distribute it.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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just to add to the many opinions already here, sometimes s hand drawn sketch has the most valuable thing on it, even if it took 5 minutes... sometimes as a visual marketing professional & graphics design problem solver, it's the ideas we come up with (& sometimes communicate) in as little as 5 minutes, that could be worth a great deal... and of course that 5 minute flash of brilliance is a result of decades of attention to these exact sort of design challenges... so it's worth money to the client, as it should make money for the client... it's up to us to ensure that it makes at least a little money for us before we give it away!
posted
Tell the F@%K it will cost $500 to save your friendship with him. If that does not work tell him you will take him to court and win. Where upon he will end up paying you triple the amount of $500 plus lawyer and court costs. The law is on your side...don't believe me...google copyright infringement. Make copies of that and stuff it up his a#$.
Remind him that you will put a lien on his van, car, boat, home, or anything else the law allows.
The Lesson to learn here is get money up front before you lift a finger, even if it's only $100.
And don't let scumbags become your friend.
-------------------- Robare M. Novou Milwaukee Sign Works Milwaukee Wisconsin USA Posts: 21 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA | Registered: Mar 2003
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all my art has disclaimers on it and some have property of watermark across it. Always fun though when every now and then a customer will ask for a eps file!
what would I really do in this situation?
Call client and inform them they stole design and present them with a bill for a couple hundred, and inform them if they do not pay this you will go forth with legal services (which you really don't wanna do) but you have done this before and it's worked out to your benefit. Be nice and firm
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
quote:Originally posted by Robare M. Novou: Tell the F@%K it will cost $500 to save your friendship with him. If that does not work tell him you will take him to court and win. Where upon he will end up paying you triple the amount of $500 plus lawyer and court costs. The law is on your side...don't believe me...google copyright infringement. Make copies of that and stuff it up his a#$.
Remind him that you will put a lien on his van, car, boat, home, or anything else the law allows.
The Lesson to learn here is get money up front before you lift a finger, even if it's only $100.
And don't let scumbags become your friend.
No.
The most he'll be awarded in court is actual damages - ie: the price of the job, and it won't even be HIS price, rather it could be Fair Market Value, which means the court will look at what the guy actually paid the other shop, in order to make a FMV valuation. If there is no copyright registration the lawyer costs are not awarded either.
That's based on the assumption he would actually win a judgment, problem is that signs and text layouts generally are not granted copyright protection unless there is a fair amount of original artwork created. He could be peeing into the wind, spending money to fight in court with absolutely no legal basis to do so, all the while generating stress and taking time away from business to chase a windmill.
It would be more advantageous to suck it up as a hard lesson, sharpen the pencil for the next couple jobs with more pleasant clients, and not have to keep banging heads on walls dealing with the other idiot.
If he had a completed/granted copyright *before* the infringement happened, it would be a different story RE: legal recourse, but there's still the issue of collecting the damages.
Unfortunately, there's "The Law" and then there's reality. That's why the man is called a Judge, he makes judgments. Otherwise he would be called a Declare, making declarations based on paper.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: it's the ideas we come up with...that could be worth a great deal
A sign professional is doing far more than charging for time and materials. It's like going to the doctor: You're paying him for what he knows rather than for what he does.
............
quote:signs and text layouts generally are not granted copyright protection unless there is a fair amount of original artwork created
To add to Mike's comment above, it is apparently not uncommon for the US Copyright Office to deny copyright registration for graphic design. The following appeared in an online Q&A column written in 2004 by a graphic artist-turned-attorney specializing in intellectual property:
"Q: I do graphic design work, for example, annual reports and web sites. I’ve heard that graphic design cannot be copyrighted. Is that true?
A. This is a difficult issue. What you’ve heard about is probably the Copyright Office policy of refusing to issue copyright registrations for 'graphic design.' The stated reason given by the Office is 'copyright may not be claimed in works consisting only of familiar symbols and designs, basic typographic ornamentation, lettering, layout, and color schemes, even if the elements are distinctively arranged or printed.' "
This attorney presents a good argument that this viewpoint of the Copyright Office is not right. And infringement suits have not been completely without success in the matter. An example of this was a greeting card designer who sued another company for stealing designs. The attorney referenced this case in her column: Roth Greeting Cards v. United Card Co., 429 F.2d 1106 (9th Cir. 1970). And obviously the US Copyright Office does not have the final say. The Federal courts do.
But the expense involved in taking someone to Federal court over a sign design seems prohibitive. And if it involves design work that the Copyright Office has already denied registration for, then I would think the battle would be very uphill.
How much better to have a shop policy in place that prevents or minimizes design theft. A design deposit will usually stop customers from continuing to shop.
Brad
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's not copyright stuff. It's theft of services. That is getting something and not paying for it..
But then again,, What do I know?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Maybe his wife is the thief and he is whipped.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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I guess I can see Mike's point... if it was not agreed upon ahead of time that he was paying you to design the van graphics, then it may be hard to get him to pay you for the design... you may just need to forget it and move on and use it as a lesson to adjust your practices...
You did the design before he agreed to pay you any money, and therefore basically agreed to do it for free.
The same thing happens to us in the construction industry. Someone calls us for a price on a steel building. They want a 24'x36'. We explain that you can build a 30'x40' for almost the same price because of how the materials work out. That they'll need a 12' sidewall height to accommodate their doors.... all kinds of other details. We spend several hours quoting the building and drawing them a quick sketch.....
Which they then take to every other building company in town to get prices and end up buying the exact building we designed for them from someone else because it saves them a thousand bucks.
Now to come back later and say we had a 'copyright' on that particular building design, or try to bill them for doing the estimate when it was never mentioned up front that they could incur charges even if they don't buy from us sounds a little absurd... but what's the difference between that and these situations?
At least in the sign business, I think a better plan is to be up front like some have mentioned and get a deposit before we ever design anything... or at least tell them, I'll show you some designs, but you'll owe for my time even if you don't buy from me...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sometimes (I'm speaking for me personally) I give out too much info, like Jon said. What I should do, is tell them a minimum of what they need or how it should be done and then say, "After we have the downpayment for the sign, we will work out all the details." But when someone comes in and starts asking questions about what they should do, I just want to help. Sometimes I am helping, other times they are taking advantage of our company knowledge to do what they need to do at our expense (my time). Hey, it happens. Learn your lesson and try not to be so nice next time!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Jane I do it too! Woman came to me for corosigns. She also mentioned that she needed a new main sign (two 4'x8's) because her old one had been damaged when moved to her new location. I said "You really do need a new sign. The metallic gold lettering on the red background has no contrast. Your letters should be white." She repainted her sign a letter at a time white over the old gold vinyl, took her about 10 days. As for the original question...you're screwed. NEVER work for free even for friends. It completely devalues your skills. Your reward is knowing that like Kelly said, the guy is more than likely p-whipped by his design-shopping wife. Till death or divorce. With "friends" like that, you don't need enemies. Love...Jill PS Irish where ya been dollface?
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I try to get a deposit before doing any design work. However, sometimes you just won't get the job without it.
Most of the people that come into our shop without a clue, that I take the time to educate - never come back. We're pretty expensive, and that's not for everyone. But at least they go to the cheapest shop in town (or wherever the end up) with a better idea of what a good sign should be.
The ones who come to the shop, that are already educated - come in to buy. And I'm happy to have them.
-------------------- Tom Henningson De Jager Signs 11474-156 Street Edmonton, AB, T5M 3N2 CANADA Phone: (780) 453-3636 Posts: 41 | From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Mar 2007
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Bob sez: "Forgiveness will be recieved largely in the measure we distribute it." Not my experience. I've been burned dozens of times by people who were old friends, old work colleagues, even family members. Never once have any of them made good. Once they figure they wont be dealing with you anymore, you're forgotten.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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