posted June 13, 2010 09:40 AM
I think Timi and Brad ( and I got your point exactly ) have really hit on something. The Mike Stevens' book is every body's guide. Everybody that is deep into signs that is. Newcomers either don't know about it or shy from it because the "technology" is old. I think a book written from a computer standpoint would be well received. I think explanations, like Brad's example of the lightweight type would be easily understood. Oh and for goodness sake somebody PUH-LEASE include a chapter on CONTRAST!!!
One problem that exists, at least in my opinion, is sign making has shifted in some ways, from a skilled trade of it's own, over into the graphic arts field. I have run into countless people that are in the sign making business that I have absolutely nothing in common with. People that give you the deer in the headlights look. It's like talking to somebody in a totally different trade
[ June 13, 2010, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
quote:One problem that exists, at least in my opinion, is sign making has shifted in some ways, from a skilled trade of it's own, over into the graphic arts field
Yes, this is true. It is part of the problem. A typical vinyl shop of today is more akin to a print shop than a sign shop.
The vocabulary is evidence of this. The term 'font' has all but replaced the sign painter term 'alphabet' in the sign shop of today. The word font, or fount, has been around a long time, but it was printer-speak, not sign talk. It originally meant a complete set of type in a specific size and weight within the larger grouping of a typestyle family. Now it is synonymous with 'letter style.' I have even heard people say 'font style,' a redundancy that's just like saying 'ATM machine.' Sign painters spoke of using 'type' on occasion. But this meant they were going to do use some transfer lettering, or maybe even pay a typesetter to produce some lettering. They would then enlarge it to sign size with an opaque projector. Using 'type' on a sign meant more time was going to be spent on the job, that it was a nicer job. But for everyday sign work, lettering came from, and was created by, the brush. It may or may not have resembled a printer's font. Sometimes when my own lettering was too lightfaced, it wasn't that I chose the wrong font. I had grabbed too small of a brush, or worse, one of my brushes had just lost too much hair.
The term 'laying up' is another print term now heard in sign shops, such as in the sentence, "The vinyl has been cut and weeded, but the sign has not been 'layed up' yet." And I've been in signs since 1974 but I had no idea what the heck a 'spot color' was till recent years. The word 'kerning' is another word that was never used by sign painters. This term comes directly from the world of hot metal type, when a type slug was whittled away (mortised) at a certain point so that part of a problem-causing letter actually overlapped the slug of an adjoining letter, resulting in tighter letter spacing (kerning always tightened the space, never widened it).
I am not decrying the use of print terms in the sign shop. Heaven forbid that a speaker of English, so rich (or bloated, depending on your viewpoint) in synonyms, would complain about a few more words added to a trade vocabulary. And everyone knows that I have never personally been against the use of additional words, though I am quiet in person.
The real problem is that design ideas, rather than terminology, do not always translate well from the print world to the sign world. This does not contradict what Ray said: "good design is good design" — this truth never changes. In fact, when I see design work that was considered good design a hundred years ago, but now it is not considered good, I am inclined to believe that it wasn't really good design in the first place.
Still, a layout (or a font) for print may have problems when applied to a sign without modification. The viewing distance required and the short read time are issues that cannot be ignored when designing signwork. Consequently, I believe there is not always perfect overlap between good design in print and good design for signs.
Design work needs to fit the end use. This is a point that pure designers have not always understood, and it has been a source of frustration for sign painters for as long as I remember. The perfect logo would look as good in a full color print on a vehicle wrap as well as in one color screened onto a plastic bag. It should be legible at night in channel letters and look good on a business card or embossed in leather or metal. I have even eaten some really nice logos in pie crust and cake frosting. Of course, few designs are perfect.
And even if the foreign sounding terminology of today's sign world rankles some of us old people, we're still all in this together.
I sure don't want to do anything else.
Brad
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted June 13, 2010 01:51 PM
Actually I did understand Brad's point after reading it,..I simply misstated the fact in order to emphasize my concern over the lack of trade books and such on the subjects involved,...Disrespect was not my intention,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted June 13, 2010 06:37 PM
Their are a lot more "guitar players" , and maybe even "brain surgeons" rhan their are really good Sign Painters. If I told you, you would have to paint 1,000,000 "O's" before you could one stroke a perfect "O", it means you better get at it. But is important to have the correct instruction. I have seen many a signman that have carried bad habits or executed poorly constructed letters just because they didn't know better, or maybe didn't seek out perfect lettering. It is a mundane task to learn Block Lettering. if you first learn how to draw them, the painting part will be easier. Like the post that mentioned the 26 letters and 10 numbers, once mastered you can now loosen up and go to Casuals/Scripts etc. To know that if you need to "pull off" some clean perfect lettering when called upon is an envious pleasure. Let's not forget spacing, letterstroke, and layout. Can these skills be a positive for their application, being used appropiately? Then there is color, borders, striping,...what a Craft. Definately for me a "deep subject" and a very fond one. It's really hard to convey the dedication it should take, but scratching the surface here to offer a hint of inspiration with anyone with the enthusiam to be the student. If it was easy everbody would be doing it.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted June 13, 2010 06:57 PM
George sez: "One problem that exists, at least in my opinion, is sign making has shifted in some ways, from a skilled trade of it's own, over into the graphic arts field."
Same thing happened to architectural rendering. Way back, the architect wd hire a specialist to make a big illustration of the client's new apartment building or school, etc., for the client's office wall. The best work was done by high-paid, amazing masters of the art, turning out a picture in watercolor, gouache, or airbrush that was completely tight in detail, with every brick and cornice accurately represented but with the whole picture having the light and freshness of the quickest watercolor sketch.
All that is long gone now. I happened to pick up an illustrator from an architect's office while I was driving a cab in the 90s. He told me he did illustrations of the finished project like that, used to clinch the commission and give to the client afterward. We got to taking shop and I must have said something about a good bluish purple being hard to mix in paint. Something in his reply caused me to ask him what two colors wd you mix to get purple? He had no clue. He tried a few guesses and I finally told him blue and red. He said that if he wants, say, a plum color, he knows that's 4206 or something. Or a lavender, that's 3894.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted June 14, 2010 08:33 AM
Too bad we live so far apart, I would be happy to teach you what I know. I still have the book from the school I attended, it has everything from basic strokes to letter styles. Layout is included too. There is nothing to compare with knowing many styles of letters and be able to just let them flow off of the brush without looking them up. One style can become many by just condensing or extending, making heavy or lite. I even found out that by feeling an attitude, you can create a sign that is just right for the job. Practice and desire along with commitment will carry you through.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted June 14, 2010 09:23 AM
Well guys, thanks for all your input but Pat had a few days plus the weekend so he should be up to speed and getting his Letterhead journeyman's card by now.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted June 15, 2010 01:14 AM
Mark Fair is a personal friend of mine. He is in Montgomery. A good man and has a true passion for the craft. I'll just bet he'd have coffee with you and discuss the basics.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted June 15, 2010 04:13 AM
Yes pat thats a great idea
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
Go to a meet, you just missed Donald's meet SC a few months ago. There is only so far that you can go alone and I have found that everyone is willing to show you a trick or two. Also at a meet you are there to paint so the is nothing but time to paint.
There are some old books that have been scanned on Google books that you can view for free.
If you are having trouble forming letters Primsmacolor has a nice brush pen.
Kurtis Grant
[ June 29, 2010, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Kurtis Grant ]
-------------------- Kurtis Grant 9370 Riviera RD Roswell, GA 30075 Posts: 8 | From: Roswell, GA | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted June 29, 2010 01:42 PM
I know it's a given... but, have to say, back before computers/cutters... you had no choice, ..want to be a signpainter, look for ways to learn..i.e. formal school of lettering/signpainting, apprenticeship, self taught...always looking at the best signwork around you, basically, living & breathing it(and dreaming it too! ala Rick) because....you HAD NO OTHER OPTION! now...you can always nip back to the comp. and if you're working for a shop, they're probably not going to pay you to practice ..."do it at night...)
guess this is long-winded...but, it was easier when you didn't know(and there wasn't) any other way but to just do it...plus, life was simpler back then, eh?
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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