posted
So I want to learn to hand letter. Other than toting my butt to a meet (which isn't happening this year) where do I start?
I've got lettering brushes coming out of my ears, I've just acquired about 60 gallons of One Shot, Ronan Bulletin Color, and Chromatic Bulletin Enamel. I've got Naptha, mineral spirits, linseed oil, a brush comb, chalk, charcoal, and razor blades.
I think all I'm missing here is some talent and I'll be danged if I know where to start making that. Everything I've done before has either been very cartoony, painted from a pounce pattern, or brushed directly onto a projection.
So...any suggestions on where to start?
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Signcraft had a great 4 part series by Raymond Chapman a while back. Well I say great, but seeing as how all I did was read it a few times and think about how I wanted to learn, it didn't work for me.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Montgomery....hmmm i think Mark fair is over your way maybe get with him...i know i started with a 4'x8' MDO on a set of stadards leaning against the wall a 4' roll of butcher paper...oneshot poster paint and 4' wood yardstick and a sharpie marker...draw out you lines and start making vertical strokes trying to keep the width of the line consistent. don't worry about the ends yet till you can be consistent. then do half moons...one side of and "o"...then do the other side. practice your strokes...get a speed ball book and it will show you the strokes for the letters..practice practice practice..lots of paper..i was taught to use a maul stick first then the over hand method. once you get the strokes down then begin to learn letter construction.
posted
Go for it, Patrick! It inspires me to see people take on difficult tasks like learning hand lettering. In fact, I'd like to go to the moon. I googled it on the internet and it says I need to build a rocket. I have a tank of diesel fuel, a couple of those jet heaters, a culvert, some controls from my R/C airplanes and an On-Star navigation system out of a wrecked Cadillac. I believe I can build one...
We should have a little friendly competition and see if I can get to the moon before you can hand-letter like Raymond Chapman.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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"Just Get The Brush" and start painting until you have questions, problems Etc. And what's this about you CAN'T drag your sorry A!* out to a Letterhead Meet? If you want to learn ANYTHING you have to get involved with the letterhead family to get all the details you will never get from a book or video! "Maintain" AJ
-------------------- Alan Johnson Alan Johnson Grafix Blairstown, NJ 07825 [URL=http://www.alanjohnsongrafix.com] Posts: 261 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
And there's not a thing wrong with pounce patterns and overhead projectors. Sometimes you just gotta have 'em.
With all the stuff you've got, all you gotta do is start swinging that brush! There are tons of videos on the internet, books from Signcraft or the library. Main thing is just like learning anything else.....practice, practice, practice.
Good luck!!! I'm going to have to run over and check up on ya....see how you're coming.....
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Like AJ said, just start pushing the brush around. It's not easy and you'll be frustrated more times than you can count, but eventually it will all come together.
That series in SignCraft may help. There was also one in Sign Business, but it still just takes a lot of work.
Actually there are just a few basic strokes that make up any letter but trying to put them together is a challenge...but it is doable.
The main ingredient you must have is that fire in your gut that won't let you give up. At some point it all comes together and you are in another world that no one can understand.
Any chance you have to watch others letter is invaluable. Mostly I learned by standing behind my mentor in Abilene, Texas and following every stroke...and then spending hours trying to do the same thing. And he was left handed which didn't help just a whole lot.
There is no "Easy Button". Good luck.
I guess I had better get going on that video before I start to drool all over the mahl stick.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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when I was an apprentice- my boss made be paint on pieces of glass- they could be wiped off and reused- when I got to the point of trying letters- he would print one off onto a sheet of paper, then put it under the glass for me to "copy"- after that, he made me do it without the paper cheat sheet-- I thought those days would never end... it was really fun in the long run
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I don't know if you're friendly with Mark but he's local and knows how to pull a brush. If you can't make it to a meet, I'm only a few hours away and I'll even throw in dinner. Trying to learn from a video just don't seem right...........
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Just wanted to add: it's like playing a guitar - I can show you the chords, but practice, practice,practice is the only way to get to Carnegie Hall.......
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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The guy who taught me used to complain to me when we saw a sign riding down the road that looked like crap, in days before vinyl cutters and digital printers ,...and it still rings very true today,..."All ya gotta know to be a sign painter son, is your "abc's" and ten numbers,...just looks like that guy didn't practice them enough",.. Mr. Bobby Loggins,... may he rest in peace,...he'd roll over in his grave if he saw some of the stuff that comes out of computers these days,...
Edited to add my 2 cents,...sign painting ain't about talent,... it's all about attitude,...anyone can learn to letter,...but it takes a very real attitude to stick with the practice sessions,... Disclaimer: the hat pic is a private joke only for those who understand and has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this post,....ya had to be there,...
[ June 11, 2010, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sonny said learning to hand-letter is like learning to play a guitar. I think this is a good analogy. Practicing strokes over and over till the moves are second nature. A "fire in the gut" is, I think, essential, too. It's the only thing that carried me through the first couple years. Working with someone, rather than alone, makes progress faster. Actually, I'm sure I could not have done it at all on my own. I needed to work with someone, despite the fact that I was a lefty and had to learn from a right-hander (I can't count the number of times I messed up previously painted letters with the end of my mahl stick — I lettered left to right like the boss — and then finally finishing a line of copy only to see a row of paint spots between letters where I had very carefully placed the mahl stick, determined to not ruin any more letters. It never ceased to amaze me how difficult it was to get the rubber end of the stick clean and dry enough not to leave tracks. Sometimes in frustration I wrapped a piece of tape around the end, and for a while I had multiple mahl sticks so I could grab a clean one without stopping. I got good at wiping small holidays with a little linseed oil on a rag, or occasionally with a fingertip and "nose oil." If the word "sinister" really was originally Latin for left-handed I am not surprised).
I also recall that learning to thin my lettering paint to the perfect consistency bedeviled me for a long time. Too thin, there's no control. And too thick was like painting with mud. I experimented a lot with reducers, additives and such, like the people who always try new diets. I am a thin-in-the-cup person, rather than a thin-as-you-palette person. I carried my color in a Dixi cup set into the top of a small orange juice can, and held the can, palette and mahl stick in my right hand in a grip that at first seemed awkward and crampy but eventually very comfortable. I could never understand how some guys could thin each individual stroke as they paletted the brush and get consistent coverage. And it seemed that dragging around a stool to set your palette and paint on was too much trouble. I felt more mobile and self-contained. On the other hand, those who did not hold their paint while lettering avoided a particular danger: once while making an awkward reach I had to hold my palette hand close to my chest and looked down too see that I had partially filled my shirt pocket with color. It happened only once, though. I learned to keep my paint cup level, and not too full, at all times after that.
There is no easy way to learn hand lettering. Difficult, frustrating, often discouraging. I remember my chest hurting just from holding my breath when lettering all day. I even wondered if I could ever pass out from asphyxiation if I pulled too many long strokes.
Even so, the most challenging part of my whole time in this business was not becoming a competent letterer — it was learning to design. If you have already achieved ability in the design area, you have, in my opinion, already jumped your biggest and most important hurdle. By learning to letter, you're simply adding another tool to your arsenal.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
That hat looks like a sign painter with the **** kicked out of him - just joking, just joking.
I am by no means a sign painter or any kind of artistic designer, I design and write software for a living but any time I pick up a paint brush to paint a wall, house, etc and it’s kind of fun to see what one can do with a brush.
-------------------- Tony Teveris Gerber Software Engr South Windsor, CT Posts: 92 | From: South Windsor, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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Not much to add as I'm just learning too. I loved reading this line of discussion and advice. This is why I keep comming back to this site. You are always happy to take time out to pass along information that you learned the hard way. You really are a great bunch. I'm trying to talk my wife into going out to Danville so I can meet some of you. Thanks!
-------------------- John Browning JBG John Browning Graphics 439 East St Hebron CT Posts: 75 | From: Hebron Ct | Registered: May 2008
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Just this morning I got up early and was feeling a little stressed about the workload that's ahead of me... 99.9% of it is all computer generated..but I had Gold wing waiting to be finished striping.. it's funny as soon as I started pulling the brush, the stressed started to lift... Nothing more that I can Add to give advice... except maybe find a local supermarket or store that wants paper window signs, and use that to practice and get paid... that's how I developed my sign painting skills, back in 1978 there were 4 supermarkets that wanted their weekly specials put up in the windows once a week, 20 signs in all, for each store... I tell you that will light a fire to learn, I bluffed my way telling them I could do it... had that job for about 3 years, before thay stopped doing it...Great way to learn.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I'm a little confused. You say you have lettered from a pattern. That would be hand lettering as a lot of folks do it. Good brush control is what is required for that I'm thinking you are talking more of "off the brush" hand lettering. Brush control is required for that along with a knowledge of letter construction. Look up Rays articles, get a speedball book and practice, practice, practice. Use patterns to learn letter construction. Pick four letterstyles.
1. A basic "block" letterstyle...the swiss family is pretty good. You want a style that has a consistent stroke width throughout.
2. A nice Roman style, something out of the Times family will work. The Roman style is the foundation for just about everything.
3. A casual...Dom diagonal will work good for this.
4. A script...pick a simple one without a lot of flourishes.
It's not necessary, but try to learn to paint your letters in one stroke if at all possible.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I still practice on paper when relaxing or watching tv with brush pens. There are some good ones that are great for doing script lettering. The chiseled calligraphic pens are good for other styles.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Stick with it, you will be rewarded in the days ahead and blessed with a knowledge and ability that many in the this trade will never know.
I for one am willing to teach what I have learned in my over fifty two years to anyone that is interested and willing to learn, just call or drop by.
Keep the art going, don't let it get lost in the future.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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Pat i gotta hand it to ya,..many many newcomers to this trade have the attitude that the skills you seek are not a requirement to practice the trade,....they aren't,...but the knowledge gained about letter-forms and letter spacing are something a majority of those same people are going to spend possibly their entire career being clueless about,...there are many rules of sign design and layout that are only found in books about hand lettering,.....let them poke fun it's their problem not yours,..I admire anyone who has the "attitude" that learning is important,...get some books on the subject while you are at it they can be the foundation of superior skills in lettering,...why practice something the wrong way an get good at doing it wrong, when if you can actually read good book on the subject you'll know for damn sure you're trying to do it the right way,...hang in there dude,...
[ June 11, 2010, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Patrick Whatley: Watched all of Pierre's videos on youtube. This doesn't look that hard, I'll probably be up to speed by Monday.
He does make it look easy, doesn't he. Pat, if you can pick up 1/100th of Pierre's passion, learning will be a snap.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I have taken up trying to learn to letter with a brush, started this last winter. It is the hardest artistic thing I've ever worked at. I thought with a background in calligraphy it would be easy, but they are two entirely different beasts and the brush doesn't go where the mind wants it to. I'm over fifty and my hand is definitely not as steady as it was in my youth. However, I have improved with my brush handling skills (but still a long way to go.) It would really be helpful have a master letterer around to watch and advise on strokes and to tell me what I'm doing wrong.
-------------------- Joy Kjer Art On Display Signs 4001 Randolph St Lincoln, NE
"My life has a superb cast, but I can't figure out the plot." Posts: 445 | From: 4001 Randolph St. Lincoln, NE | Registered: Jun 2002
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"Pat ... just shut up and start practicing ... it ain't all that hard!"
The hell it isnt. Frinstance, I watched a video of Steve Kafka doing some little scrolling including his signature with that No. 3 striper brush of his. It looked like a great brush so I ordered it and had a go with it. I might as well be trying to letter by leaning over a fence with a long piece of rope dipped in paint. Nobody can control that thing. I think the video was faked. Steve Kafka doesnt even exist.
As for learning letters themselves, I did happen to have a good teacher one time in school. He taught typography to beginners. The whole thing was having us learn and draw two typefaces -- Bodoni and Caslon. We had to learn every nuance of them and draw them exactly right from memory. I think his theory that you wd learn the essentials of typography from that was right.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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RAY: my comment was a smartazz one! theres no market down here for that anymore and no call or reason in it. If it was for his personal entertainment I can understand.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I remember when lettering was what I dreamed about. Sometimes I'd see a layout or a combination of spaces or wake up excited about the stroke I pulled. As you do it and let it consume you it gets easier. There is a lot that happens when we also practice in our sleep.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:there are many rules of sign design and layout that are only found in books about hand lettering
I agree with Tim B. I don't know of any books on sign layout or design written from a vinyl perspective. Surely it is high time for one, because computer-generated design has brought with it a set of problems that were unknown to sign people in times past. A couple of examples, one big, one small:
Big problem: There is a preponderance of light face letter styles in computer-generated sign work. Sign painters in times past, by contrast, used bolder stroked letters. Light faced letters were used, but judiciously and with care so as not to compromise legibility. The cause of the current glut of light faced lettering is obvious when you think about it. Our computers are loaded with "fonts," that is, typestyles. These are alphabets that have been designed for print, not for signs. Times Roman looks great in body text on a newspaper page because that's what it was designed for. It was designed to be legible at point sizes. In addition, it was intended to be compact, so that more letters could fit on the pages of the London Times, thus saving costs. When you enlarge Times Roman to typical sign sizes, it can become a weak letter. There is just too much "white" in it. The bold version is better, but still somewhat weak. A large sign filled with Times Roman has a too-white look, like it's anemic. To a sign painter years ago this problem did not exist. He was not tied to fonts or type. A roman letter could be constructed that was beefier in the thin strokes and serifs, so that a sign painter's roman letter more resembled a Clarendon rather than a Times Roman. Traditionally, a sign painter was not overly concerned with perfectly duplicating a type (unless it was a logotype, of course). The emphasis was on legibility. Even when asked to use a weak typestyle, a hand letterer could fudge and mash down on the brush a little to fatten the thin strokes on the fly, adding a little "blackness" to the line of copy. Technically, of course, this was distorting the typestyle, but it thus became easier to read (was I the only one who did this?). With computer fonts, making a letter blacker is not so easily done. A printer tries to achieve, in printer talk, a nice gray look to a page. This is usually not a good goal for a sign. It results in a sign that looks like a giant page rather than a sign.
Small problem: The too low position assigned to dashes, hyphens and colons in most software. Actually, this position is the default lower-case position. Before computers, sign painters positioned the dash in a phone number at the vertical midpoint of the number. So too with a hyphen. If a hyphen occurred in a line of capital letters, it was centered vertically with the cap height. If it occurred in a line of lower case letters, it was centered vertically with the shorter lower case height, or more accurately, the x-height. We have become so accustomed to seeing hyphens and dashes sitting below center that we don't think of it as strange anymore. But it's not pretty. And print-wise, it's not even good typesetting —see Geoffrey Dowding, Finer Points in the Spacing and Arrangement of Type (1957).
........
Will hand-lettering disappear completely? Probably not, though the market may continue to dwindle. Custom hand-made furniture is still produced, though it's market is small. Hand made paper is still sold, to an even smaller market. In the print world, letterpress shops, using metal type, still exist. There are even punch-cutters still active (one, a Dutchman, has even written a book on the subject). Maybe they don't have a market. The punch-cutters, that is. Some sign jobs are still, I believe, more cost-effectively produced by hand painting. Though vinyl can be made to stick to a brick wall, for instance, surely painting is the better, faster way. And how could you possibly vinyl a wall with raked mortar joints? Raymond Chapman posted pictures of a trailer that his son lettered. Vinyl can be a nightmare on a trailer like this. Hand painting it is easy. Or do I just need more vinyl experience?
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just a thought about Brad's comment on no books on design using vinyl. Design is design - no matter what the medium. Good design can be executed with a brush, vinyl or HDU.
David Butler could do a sign in twigs and have it look nice.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have no clue what Brad was trying to point out Ray(or anyone else out there, not to single Ray out), but other than Mike Steven's book on sign design what is out there other than books on hand lettering,or sign painting that address the issues from a sign designers point of view? I would really like to know of some,... so I don't come across as confrontational and someone who hates computers and vinyl signage,if i try to offer up some help on the topic,.....
[ June 12, 2010, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with it all. Practise is the key. You just have to have enough of the work that you are doing it daily. Mike Steven's Mastering Layout is a good one, as well. Pierre's work on Youtube is fabulously stimulating. Many of the others here on Letterville are masters, for sure. Just practise.
The glass trick helped me get my 'lick' lettering down. (Sharpee lines on the back to keep everything horizontal) Banner paper and poster enamel also is a good way to bang out a few alphabets every day, but pencil date them and roll them along, so you can go back and see your progress. I have hand-lettered some 150,000-170,000 windshields and that has given me some appreciation for good 'casual' styles. Just keep looking. There are many of us still out here doing it....and remember to keep your brushes clean!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm more interested in doing the work than getting the job out the door, so I will often do something by hand that cd be done some other way faster, easier, and cheaper. I might not make as much money, so tough. When I was driving a cab I cd have probably made more as a limo driver but cab driving is a lot of fun (if you're suited for it) and driving a limo sucks. And i dont mean that I dont value modern techniques. The computer, eg., makes this list possible and gives me a chance to watch the experts working via YouTube, which I wd never have been able to do otherwise.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Yep, you were correct Ray, I don't follow the crowds or the cliques or the cults. not a damn thing wrong with that
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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