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So this weekend at the Puyallup Fairgrounds, they are having an Aviation Convention. I had mentioned to one of the participates about doing graphics on airplanes. I was told you need special certification, tons of liability insurance, etc. Even to a point that the graphics person could be held responsible for an accident. He also told me vinyl graphics are not allowed on planes because they could tear off and become lodged in the airtake stuff. Anybody even deal witht this?
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3816 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I have done paint work on dozens of airplanes and have never heard of any need for certification or restrictions on materials.
I have heard of cases with race car accidents where the lawyers named everyone who had a name or sticker on the car, but I don't think that anyone could be held responsible unless it could be proved that what you did caused the accident.
I just talked to Dale Weber and he has also done a lot of planes with no problems. If you would like to call me next week I will fill you in on what I know.
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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I have put vinyl N numbers on an airplane... That might be ok tho because it was on the tail and wouldn't get into the air intake unless he shifted into reverse.
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I have done hundreds of planes, do them all the time... never had a problem, and yes, they are done using.... "GASP" VINYL!!!!!!!!!!Oh the Humanity!
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I've often wondered about the liability of vinyl on aircraft. I've seen many ads showing some big jet with vinyl graphics on it.
After being in the Air Force, I've seen that just a ballpoint pen or pair of glasses can destroy a jet engine. I can imagine what would happen if a big piece of vinyl would peel off mid-flight. Scary thought.
I have heard that paint is also a concern, particularly on helicopters. Apparently it is weighed, and figured into the load capacity and balance of the craft.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Danger, Will Robinson. Those ambulance chasers go after anyone who is under-insured when one plane goes down. The liability issues are just way too horrid defending against if one of the lawyers starts in after you. Make five grand on one and spend 200k defending it, if it causes problems. I grew up in Wichita, air capital of the world, they used to say and I heard stories even back then. Why do you think they quit producing so many single engine planes?
I heard one case where a drunk pilot came in too low in a single engine plane and clipped a power wire. They sued the power company for putting the line too high, but the tire manufacturer ended up paying the claim as it was decided the tire should have rolled off the wire??? Aviation law is nuts.
Stick to less cupa lata projects. I never heard of a boat that sank because of the graphics, but if some lawyer reads this, a case will be made soon, I bet.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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I used to do a lot of high end planes for various casinos, most'ly tail art...Bill Bennett of Circus circus was biggest customer, he replaced his fleet (4) every two years, mostly Gulf Streams of differing models...
One time he wanted entire plane done, his worth allowed me to research how to best do this, we had the hanger, now all I needed to know was basically, how...questions like: Which technique best suits this project? To find out, I was sent to "airplane" paint school run by Gulf Stream...very informative...eye opening to be more exact, which is perfect word to use as that's exactly what it entailed...precision, +...exacting.
Everything got weighed including the residue from wet sanding entire aircraft and of course that meant waiting for water to reside and weighing the plastic sheets used to cover the floor, as they'd already been weighed for a base, the difference was factored in the final formula...Had to weigh the paint, any left over, and a already factored %, deducted for overspray, which was a minimum, as we used closed, pressure spray rigs...
Long story short, Mr. Bennett found it cheaper from his standpoint, to order a new plane w/paint he wanted already on plane, I still got the artwork nod...
Later I painted a home built kit that utilizes a Chev. V-8 for power, same thing, FAA required we weigh and project estimates of paint weight to fit planes profile...as it was a homebuilt, owner was allowed certain variances by shedding weight in other areas....he wanted a "heavy" paint job,(candy-maroon over pearl white w/graphics), so we compensated one for the other...he left out some avionics and enjoyed his custom plane for years...bear to paint, all carbon-fiber...hard to sand wasn't the biggest issue, paint cracks at speed, (425mph),and altitude were responsible for problems, finally used Diamont clears and viola, no cracks at altitude..
Corp. jets are on same guidelines when being painted...also commerical airlines, SouthWest did a few depicting different regions they traveled, all paint, I know, boarded one w/brand new Baja theme, when I reached Ohio, after a huge thunder/lighting storm, I noticed a lot of paint damage where lighting had hit the plane, every hit was sans paint...that was an E-ticket ride for sure...another story in it's self...
So moral of my tale Will, if the lawyers don't get you, the FAA rules will.....
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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for smaller aircraft. And to avoid anyone pretending to be aircraft experts..
All you have to do is consult with any A&P mechanic. It's his job to determine the good or bad of aircraft decorating.
He will guide you around the tiny intakes that operate the altimeters and other instruments. Usually around the front of the plane. And he can advise you about the laws and regs of aircraft graphics.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I just referred an aircraft job to a buddy who is more qualified. There were for RTA vinyl stripes and some logos. He said even just to get the aircraft vinyl you had to go through a complicated approval procedure. You had to be a qualified shop etc etc He made the decals and then had the client sign a waiver to the effect that his sign company was not liable for any failures caused by the decals. This is something I would not touch with a 10 foot pole. Love....Jill
[ February 20, 2010, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Jillbeans ]
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Ive put oracal 651 on planes, I didnt think twice about it and its been 4 years later no problems. they need to be more concerned with geese than a freaking peice of vinyl
obviously this is some idiot at the govt with too much time on his hands
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
There is a major problem with this discussion..... and it's that it is not nearly specific enough. There's a difference in the techniques and requirements of this depending on what kind of aircraft you are talking about. The statements here apply to a range of aircraft... from completely repainting commercial jet/turbo-prop aircraft that carry passengers down to putting N-numbers on a personal homebuilt aircraft.
It's basically like the question was asked... can you put graphics on a flying object? And then the following answers are treating painting your initials on a Frisbee and wrapping the space station with Avery calendared vinyl in the same context.....
If it is a EAA convention consisting of homebuilt and general aviation aircraft, you could go and make a lot of money. There are very few regulations regarding paint/vinyl on experimental aircraft. Most of these guys paint these things themselves or with the help of a buddy who does automotive painting. I have done lots of vinyl N-Numbers and vinyl graphics for this type of aircraft. I have a couple friends who have built several homebuilt aircraft including one who does it for a living... I've also gone to quite a few fly-ins (including Sun'N'Fun a couple times) and looked at a lot of homebuilts and talked to these guys... some will even do full wraps on their aircraft.
My concerns with a full wrap would be similar to a few of the pilots in that thread.... having the vinyl peel up from hard to wrap places... and a big chunk coming off and getting wrapped around a rear control surface. However, if you are putting graphics in a relatively flat area of smooth paint, and you've properly cleaned and prepared your surface.... you have nothing to worry about.
3m does make a Aircraft Film and they do require you to be certified to use it.... but this is very rarely used on small aircraft and is designed to go on large jets or corporate aircraft.... 3m Aircraft Graphic Film Specs
General aviation aircraft (like small single prop planes) don't have many restrictions either. There are regulations about the size, spacing, contrast and style of N-numbers, but the FAA doesn't care if you use paint or vinyl. They also would not care about a pin-stripe or graphic painted on the tail of the plane... however, if you are going to strip and completely repaint the plane, then they do have guidelines to follow.
Most of these guys like to use paint, mainly because of durability and longevity reasons. I have also cut vinyl masks for them to paint the N-numbers and stripes... again, I'd suggest looking up the rules on the numbers...
If you'd like to verify the variety of information you've received, I would do like Curtis suggested... go over to your local airport and talk to an A&P mechanic. I promise you, they will be nice to you and if they don't know the answer they will be glad to look up whatever you want them to in their FAA rule book....
Edited to add one last thing.... if you'd like to read through the FAA regs, go to this link and look through the 'Airworthiness' sections...
posted
The couple of planes I painted were a few years ago and through friends.I painted an RV4 for a retired AA pilot "scud runner". Course he didn't give a flip and would do barrel rolls at the drop of a hat at 200 mph. Painted a logo on a push-pull prop with a two headed donkey snorting against each other. and a few other select nose and tail art without being scrutinized.Called my business "just plane art" Now I'd check with the authorities,It's not like it used to be.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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reading this post makes me realize how differently people think. While some people are busy pulling up certification classes and trying to find out what brand of vinyl to use on planes, Im simply out there lettering the damn thing. I understand we are all different and as far as me, I dont start poking the sleeping dog, never have. I think this would come down to common sense.
If anyone has to go thru this much trouble to get a job, I wouldnt even take it at this point
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Like I said earlier, Hundreds and Hundreds of Airplanes, yes some Commuter Planes, Merlon Metros, Cessnas, King Airs, Dash 8'S, even Helicopters, some of these were done for other nations as well... never ever a problem... but you don't put it over any vents or anything.. that's just common sense.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Those statements are exactly why I don't fly, there's always someone willing to break/ignore the rules...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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I doa lot of work for an airline company here, they do maintenance on other companies Airplanes as well... I asked one of the engineers one day did he ever lay awake at night wondering did he put that little piece of wire through the thread of the bolt to keep the nut from backing off... he laughed... sort of.. there at least 2 other who check the work being done.. the cheif engineer being the last who has to sign off on the work... makes me wonder sometimes as well Frank.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Their history isn't sordid by any means, but human nature does rear it's ugly head at times, some by intention, others by mistakes...
I have a friend that is the "air-boss" for a fleet of excutive jets and some of his stories will scare the be-jezes out of you...
By mistake is more common than one would think, and the graft and corruption in the parts business is just downright criminal...this isn't a theory of mine, it's history, proveable by records, anyone remember crash outside of Philly where second hand parts were the culprit? The one where they found an entire industry selling bogus parts or parts that were destined to fail...That one killed over 160 ppl., people, not objects or things, but human flesh, sons, fathers, mothers, loved ones, all for money(?)
Ya, I don't fly...and the weak defense of anything short of total integrity doesn't fly either...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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