posted
Some thoughts came up in the website thread to which I would like to respond, so I began this line of thinking rather than adding to that one.
In my presentations I usually comment that my job is to make the customer look good and that I'm on their side because I want my designs to improve their business and make them more successful
If the high cost of the sign is mentioned I will tell them that the sign is going to make them more money than it makes me, because I will get paid only once, but that they will be paid every day that the sign is in use.
I'm not selling letters by the pound but creating a positive image for my client that makes them look good to their prospective customers.
If that's the case, then my designs are not necessarily what I think is best (for me) but what is best for my client. I'm not designing for me (or my peers) but for my customer's clients. That does not mean that I produce a bad design but one geared to the audience of that business.
Several years ago I was asked to design a sign for an art gallery in the small village of Salado, just south of us. I talked to the owner and a took photos of the new building that she would be occupying. She wanted a "Texas look" that had some Indian influence. So, off I go to whip up some award-winning idea.
I thought that what I designed was exactly what she had in mind since she had given my some precise guidelines along with the fact that she wanted it dimensional. We had discussed approximate cost and that wasn't a problem.
At the presentation time she was underwhelmed by my creative abilities and produced a photo of a sign that she had seen somewhere that she literally fell in love with. It was terrible. Really unreadable and not dimensional...all dark colors with no contrast and certainly had no resemblance to Texas or Indian at all. I actually had to ask her what it said.
So, I did my best selling talk and explained the design flaws and how that type of sign had little to do with her business or her customers. She became very agitated and said she didn't care what her customers thought, she knew what she liked and she was the one writing the check.
The discussion continued for a while longer but ended with her telling me that she would get someone who would do what she wanted. And she did. The sign is unreadable and doesn't reflect a gallery dealing in Western and Indian art in any way...but I'm sure she is pleased.
There was no way that I could bring myself to producing the garbage that she wanted because it was not going to help her business. There was a number of my signs within pointing distance of where we were standing and she liked them but would not accept my professional opinion.
Now, what would you do? Is the customer always right and you just do what they think is best or does your experience over ride personal opinion (the customer's)?
[ February 08, 2010, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yep - exactly the issue I was discussing in my last SC article Ray.
Fine line, and sometimes, it depends on how hungry you are. When you are slammed with people who get that they are not experts, thus, the reason for them coming to you in the first place, its much easier to wish the others good luck and send them on their way.
You can spot them pretty early on, and I'm very upfront with telling them unless they are in our target demographics, I don't really care if they like what we're suggesting or not.
Similar story about a logo we did for a landscape client that had a butterfly. Didnt like to look, thought it was too feminine, worried his 'guys' wouldnt want to wear the t-shirts, etc. Finally was able to convince him his guys preferences didn't matter, and neither did his. 6 months later, he can't believe the response, and everyone knows him by this huge 5' tall butterfly we aggressively used in his branding.
Sometimes, you need confidence, and a touch of arrogance to push them where they need to go. And it's true - what we do doesn't really 'cost' them money - it makes them money.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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As we move more towards the sign business (away from the large theme projects) I find I run into this more and more. People come to me, drawn to our work that they've seen elsewhere. They are convinced I am the guy to do their signs. But as we get into the design process it sometimes turns out they only want me to make the sign - not design it. I in turn choke on the ideas presented for they simply don't work for various reasons similar to what Raymond tells of above.
I will not simply take the money and run. More than a few of these potential customers have been sent down the road to have their projects made by someone else.
While I want happy customers I also want to be happy and satisfied at what I do. If I'm not I may as well get an ordinary job. My reputation is re-established with every project that goes out the door.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
That is a situation, that most signmakers, have come across or will come across. For the "quick sticker" shops, they accept this and welcome the opportunity not having to design something and produce it quickly and move on to the next one.
Just a thought and a what if... a person had two businesses in one. A sign/print shop that caters to these types and the other business that caters to design/image and higher end signage, all under the same roof? Like I said... just a thought.
-------------------- Weston Pulley WP Signs Plus Nova Scotia Posts: 44 | From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2009
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I believe our shops quickly earn a reputation for the type of work we send out the door daily. I KNOW they type of work I want to do and so only do that style.
It works for me.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I believe in what Ray and Dan has said regarding the nonsensical BS which is thrown at you relating to the respect of a designer looking through your potential customers eyes compared to your status at a lifelong signmaker and designer. This is part of the problem as you know all too well and although in my business I have heard all the stories of how they have chosen me over someone else until I give my opinion and my price than like yourselves things change sometimes. Some of us mind you, not all of us are true designers who are competent to transform lemons into lemonade and yet are being thrown into the big vat and treated like those who just woke up after working at DQ all their lives and this is the problem. I personally have never cared much for those who have their beliefs in superficial powers while trying to empty your pockets and yet haven't a clue to what it is that you're actually capable of doing while another with less then less competence agrees with the customer which cheapens the industry and eventually bites the dust in their business as if their original business was just a fad. I have heard all the stories, seen all the scenarios and like yourself waited for your icons to appear which never seem to happen and yet you're still waiting for all the answers instead just going about what it is that you do to make money. Although I have a different outlook, you have never heard me ask for help in what it is that I've done for fifty something years, whether its performance, compatibilities or just choosing a color, so with this said, why must every problem have no solution within yourself that you find it so important to post it for all to see. A friend once said to me when I was down on my luck after knocking on his door " everyone's got problems, come back when ya got solutions "
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Chapman: If that's the case, then my designs are not necessarily what I think is best (for me) but what is best for my client. I'm not designing for me (or my peers) but for my customer's clients. That does not mean that I produce a bad design but one geared to the audience of that business.
To me, Ray, this is the most poignant point of your post.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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From our Mission page on our site: (http://graphicd-signs.com/html/aboutus_mission.htm)
Sure we like to make pretty things - like logos, web sites and brochures, but what we love more is how those pretty things translate into sales and growth for your company. That's exciting. That's what we love about our jobs. We don't design for awards and accolades (although they seem to come to us anyway) - but rather with our clients strategic objectives in mind. Our target audience for your marketing is not other designers. We don't care what other designers think of our work. Other designers don't pay our bills - our clients do - or rather, our clients' clients do.
That's why we design your materials to appeal to your customers. Period."
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Dan, I don't consider myself some great temperamental artist, I just make signs, but some customers are on such a different wavelength, they have an idea they can't communicate or nephew art that's so awful you can't deal with it. The older I get, the shorter the scale on my BS-o-meter. I'm sure it makes me a poor businessman but sometimes it feels pretty good to tell them to take a hike, or on rare occasions G-T-F-O.
-------------------- Eric Elmgren ericsignguy@comcast.net A & E Graphic Signs Park Ridge, IL "The future isn't what it used to be" -Yogi Berra Posts: 192 | From: PARK RIDGE, ILLINOIS | Registered: Aug 2009
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Some well concidered ideas above....and I frankly love the idea that what goes out the door is what "you" do. Dan's point is also well taken in so far as "how hungry" are you and how committed. Many times I've been in both positions and not that it was necessarily the "correct"thing, but most often have taken the high road and essentially walked away. It also brings up the concept that what "we" think of a good design/concept is not always what works. I had that experience recently when a possible client asked for me to "give him something great that didn't look like one of mine". That's a welcome challenge and we'll see how that goes in a couple months or so.....the real point being he wanted the quality of "my" work but a different look....and equally relevant in another style.....Hey.....what can I say, just a few cents worth on a HUGE subject.
posted
For what it is worth from this retired guy.
Pursue all the "I am the artiste and I am the expert and I know what will work for you" stuff
Then wait for the jobs to arrive and then wait for the payments to arrive too.
Surely there is a point when the paycheck is more important than the artistic stuff??
Steve has said many times that this forum is about sharing information...
Why don't we share information about pricing and making a decent living and saving for retirement?
Maybe most sign people think they will be wanting to work until they die?
Maybe most sign people think they will HAVE to work until they die?
I know that this sign guy is enjoying retirement..7 months in Mexico and 5 months in Canada...not because I was an artist..but because I treated my business as a business.
One thing I find interesting, talking to other retired guys in our area of Mexico. We all worked at being in business. We all loved what we did!!!...We all planned for the future and made our futures happen as we wished them to.
Sorry..Back to Raymond's topic...Who did I work for??? ME!!!!!!! and not ashamed to say it.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
When it comes to design, the most important person is not me, not the people on this forum, not even the person writing the check. It's that person's target market.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
All great comments and we all agree. I look back at when I had some interesting challenge of a project and see that almost everytime I failed at getting the job and some lame attempt was accomplished by someone else from the overbearing client's ideas, I squirmed a bit in my seat, knowing that I failed to really connect with the client for some obscure reason. So many times when I leave a conference with a client, I find going back the next day and expressing the simple notion that I need to listen harder at what the client really wants, usually breaks the ice. The client warms up a bit at the extra effort and will generally proffer the real reason for the disconnect (which usually is that I have come off as being too much an expert or that my prices are too high). I have learned that nothing beats just common sense and treating each important client as I would an expensive sweater by hand-washing it, instead of throwing in in with jeans and into the drier, always yields better results. We need all our csustomers, especially in these lean times and we all must strive to inspire one another to simply listen better and to try with all our selling skills to achieve a satisfied client and a sharp looking sign.
Even when I go back and get a hard sale, I am also just as amazed as when I drive by months later and see some little part of the finished project is kinda weak. UGH! No matter how hard we try, it is still an art and not a science.
If this were really easy, I guess everyone would be doing it. Selling is the real skill and just being able to make the signs is only part of it. OK...It is a very hard part indeed, but turning a hostiile, tasteless client into a great finished result is the real score. It is never how hard you work, but how smart you work. We gotta swallow our pride and open up our minds at times. When the idea is really ready to assuage the client, it does so with the greatest of ease.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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I meet, I learn and I ask questions I then design based on what Ive learned. Im not a BS'er. if you LIKE my layout we can tweak it, if you hate it, walk.
We have all had situations to where our art was in competition to another cheap-ass designer wanna be and they won, Good for them. Good for the sutomer, i will not sit and try to convince or sell my art or designs. If you shoot down (what I feel) is a great logo you need to go.
Theres always another customer out there that will appreciate your art and time and everyone involved will be sucessful. I love designing but sometimes it ain't worth it if your dealing with people with no clue only price
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
The part about this work that I love really is the combination of juggling the two opposing forces; the customer's need for some artwork and my ability to imagine what would look good. It is so easy to convince myself that I am just right sometimes, when I have not really connected with my client, first. I think someone told me that is called maturity seasoned with experience...kinds like a great piece of fish seasoned with the right hot sauce.
I believe that people out there are basically good. When they want something requiring skill and talent, they yield to their own ego a bit and are basically willing to open up a bit. One of my best lines to bring into a conversation when I am 'listening' to my client's needs is to say, "Please, let me borrow your imagination for a second here and see if I understand you and that I am listening to you correctly." and then say something about my lack of having much artistic talent by saying that at times I am so challeneged that I 'cannot even draw a conclusion'. Then when he chuckles up one of those first objections about price, I say, "You sound like the sort of poor business person who is so poor you cannot afford to pay attention' and then I go right for the jugular! Gotta entertain them!
One sharp (and terribly expensive) sales consultant once taight me when I was managing a giant Chevy store that the only way to overcome objections is that you have to bowl them over with your creative imagination, to say things with conviction, like they have never been really dazzled. He was right, although I still think paying some guy 10 grand for a week of his sales advice was a bit excessive. Still, the results were in the pudding and he really did set fire to my sales and revenue for the next six months. Having an open mid always helps.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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At what point does the " he was TOO GOOD for my project and told me to get out of his shop" commentary begin floating around the town?
Even if you phrased it," Sir, we don't seem to be connecting on this project. Let me suggest you work with XYZ Co. They may have a better feel for your project than I do."
If someone comes to you to do work, and you send them somewhere else because "you" just aren't "getting it", what is the backlash like?
I hear it about my competitors all the time. Occasionally I hear it about my shop; of course it is usually twisted beyond belief, but it is still there....
Does NOT accepting the crummy work hurt you as well?
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote: Does NOT accepting the crummy work hurt you as well?
No. There will always be someone finding fault with our business or products. Living in fear of some bad mouth is the last thing we should worry about. In my experience, the bad mouth is always bad mouth and and all his/her friends know it.
The one bad mouth will never overcome 100 good ones.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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One of my competitors hand letters his truck jobs. Generally 3-4 months after one of his customers has their truck done, they end up in my shop because the enamel literally falls off the truck.
This happens several times a year (he is a part time shop). Having lettered with enamel myself for a few years, I am at a loss for what to say to the client.
I can take a rag with trapper on it and wipe the lettering off just like it was dust.
I try not to comment on his abilities, but rather say something like "ABC company that makes the enamel had a bad batch awhile ago and he may have gotten a bad can. You should go back to him and have him repair it."
At this point I get the ,"I did, and it is still coming off."
I then, no matter how I feel about the job, take it on. The client is happy with my work and refers more work my way, and away from the other guy.
Every time I see one of the trucks I have re-done, I get a small pit in my stomach. Not really guilt, because it isn't, but I guess sorrow for the other guy.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Years ago, when I was restoring old cars, I had a customer come in with an odd ball project. He had custom formed a motorcycle faring and he wanted it primed and sanded out smooth. No problem, I thought. As soon as the primer hit the fiberglass, we discovered outgassing of some of the poorly mixed epoxy in the glass and it started pinholing badly. After several attempts to dig them out, fill them with new fiberglass, it all seemed to work. We primed it with numerous coats of the best surfacing primer and sanded it out. The project took one day longer than the customer wanted, despite the fact that he had been 'inventing' it for six months. He called and came in the next day. He was hot because we had taken an extra day. I calmed him down and assured him there would be no extra charge and took his check. It bounced with STOP PAYMENT stamped all over it.
I waited a week and called him up. He said he would come in to talk. Another week passed and he finally came in. He was still furious that it had taken an extra day and thet he was concerned that my primer would eventually cause more outgassing and pinholes. He had taken it home and applied 20 coats of cheap K-Mart spray panit to it. Other than the runs and fingerprints, the thing looked like there were no problems. He begrudgingly paid me cash with a few last negative comments.
I had taken all I could from the guy and let out a paragraph of derisive comments back to him. Big mistake! He stormed out of my office and a week layer I received a summons to appear in small claim court. Ugh!
The judge listened to his complaints and looked at the faring that he brought into court. The jusdge asked me if I had just surface primed it, or if I had done the final coats. I explained that the huy had spray canned it and that there were a few runs in it. The judge laughed and slammed down his gavel. He told me had I entered 'pleadings' he would have awarded me up to $200 for the idiot's harrassment. I smiled and bought everyone at the shop, beer that night.
Two weeks later, I get another summons, but this time in district court. I had to hire an attorney! I give the attorney a couple hundred bucks and he got the guy to settle. OK I am out some 30% of the bill and alot of grief. I learned to never voice my personal opinions to the client, no matter how gruff he becomes. I learned to 'smile and wave' is the best policy. It was a tough lesson to learn.
The final chapter....the guy put the faring on his expensive Rice Rocket and crashed into a car, ending up in a hospital and crippled for life! Broke his back. Really. He lost his business and ended up in a wheel chair. I ran into him one day in a parking lot and told him how bad I felt for all of the grief I had caised him. He seethed anger and smoke poured out his ears. Oh well.
Moral of this story is: "The right customer is always right...and the wrong customer is simply the wrong customer."
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do it,,take on the most stupidiest , ugly jobs. And why? For thee mula. The hardest part is lying to the customer, right in his face and saying "Oh yeah, it came out really good". The easiest part is depositing the check.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3816 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
fired a customer just last week Gave her deposit baqck. Figured whatever I did for her would not be good enough, cheap enough, etc. She showed up at my shop loudly bashing the competition, and will prolly bash me too, but I wanted to cut my losses early on this one.
posted
Lets say Raymond went ahead and did this ugly sign for this customer. Few weeks down the road, she gets unfavorable comments from some of her friends, family, etc. She decides it isnt what she really wanted in the first place. Who do you think she will put the blame on when someone asks, "Who did your horrible sign?" Yep, ol Raymond. In my book, he made the right decision. When you make the kind of signs Raymond is famous for, if you stray from that, it may bite you even worse than sending a customer to someone else. There are enough ugly signs in the world as it is.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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I never do anything anyone wants and have made a decent living my entire life doing it my way. I have really been good at changing persons minds and although my work is sometimes controversial, I've always gotten the thumbs up
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
In days gone by, being a sign maker inherently required that you have some artistic shills. It wasn't unusual to have someone come in based on what they'd seen of your work and leave the design work up to you. A few pencil sketches were typically all it took to get an idea across. No, it wasn't fully detailed, but many customers trusted that you knew what you were doing and would drop the deposit at that point.
Today, seeing a computer print out or emailing them a layout is expected, whether it's your design or a variation of something they supplied to you. It's not uncommon for customers to ask for several changes because they assume that a few clicks of the mouse is all that is required. Unfortunately, that's not always true.
I've lost track of how many designs have gotten "watered down" by customers asking for changes or being overly specific about which font is going to be used, but Dan brings up a good point. How hungry you are is a bigger factor these day. With the proliferation of computers, much of the design process has been transferred to the customer's (or one of their friends) hands. Not all of it transitions into signage, but it's what they are accustomed to and often what we have to produce.
There's always the option to say yes or no to a job...but there's never been a standard set as to when to say it. That remains for each of us to decide as we see fit, whether it's based on how hungry we are or whatever personal limits you will or will not accept.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Wow, so many terrific people posting deep, honest thoughts about this: Thanks Letterville. My thoughts: I have a limited amount of creative motivation in my work, largely depending on how well I know the client, and how appreciative they seem to be. I know the reality of business, and money should not be made at the cost of our own emotions. This is why I make the effort to be creative outside of my profession completely. Getting your expressive creativity out in any form of art is satisfying, so long as it is for that purpose and that purpose alone. The talents we posess and develope are gifts, not just for our customers or so we can put food on the table, but for US to enjoy what we are, and what we have to offer. Take a few hours to think of what you enjoy creating most, make a plan to do it, and after you're done, if you've made something you're proud of, share it. If it isn't rewarded with praise or monetary gain, remember, appreciating art has been, and always will be free and anonymous. I've admired your work for years Mr. Chapman, and you've never got a dime from me! As sign people we work to evoke a positive, enticing experience from the viewer, a very narrow goal in reality. Every single experience in life can be appreciated, from despare, loneliness, emptyness, even death. Take a crack at expressing yourself outside of work, outside of the bank line, and find your source of creativity.
-------------------- Jerry Steward Sign&Print Bethlehem, PA Posts: 126 | From: Bethlehem, PA | Registered: Oct 2001
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The easiest part is depositing the check.
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