posted February 05, 2010 02:53 PM
It's a cold, rainy day, so forgive the less than positive post. You've all had this customer, so just nod your head and go on with your business.
A large, national construction company uses me to do their project signs on a regular basis - they pick up the panels and install them.
This morning I get an email from their Graphic Designer with a layout for a project sign - local university student housing. Don't need a price - just do the job and we'll pick it up when ready.
No size. So I email back and ask for the size. A few minutes passes and the answer comes back - 4' x 8', just like always. The problem is that the artwork is almost square.
So, I call and explain that the artwork is not scaled to a 4' x 8'....the answer? Just make it a 4' x 8' but use my artwork. OK, I'll redraw it to a 4' x 8' proportion. Answer..no, just use my layout and make it a 4' x 8'.
It's obvious that we are not communicating. So, I ask, "What size did you design it for?". Answer: well, I just did it in Power Point - whatever size that is.
Of course, the resolution is so low it is impossible to use (had a rendering of the new dorm) and I explain that better artwork is needed.
He can't undestand why I can't use what he sent, so I invite him over to see what his artwork would look like at full scale. I just enlarge his design to full size and print out a small section on the ink jet printer.
When he sees it he can't believe why his artwork won't work and I explain he needs it to be a higher resolution and the logos and lettering need to be a vector file. I'm getting a blank stare and it's obvious he has no idea what I'm talking about.
It looks good on his monitor...so, what's the problem?
We discuss a few more areas of concern. I suggest that he send me higher resolution renderings and logos and I will lay it out to a 4' x 8' scale. Later, I receive a call from the project superintendent asking what I need. A list is made and he has it in an email with the hour.
Of course, that time will be charged to the project and the accountant will wonder why they are paying so much for a simple project sign.
Meanwhile, the Graphic Designer will go on making twice (or three times or more what I am) and having no clue what he's doing. But he has a degree on the wall so he must be right.
End of rant.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted February 05, 2010 03:34 PM
Well it didn't end like I thought it was headed to; your client going somewhere else to people that will listen to them. A lot of times we get punished for them being obtuse.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted February 05, 2010 03:37 PM
One of my largest customers right now is a high-dollar operation with a highly paid graphics designer, so I'm dealing with this kind of thing on a day to day basis. The funny part is, he makes things so complicated a lot of their departments bypass him and just let me lay out their projects.
I'm expecting a situation to arise out of this sooner or later.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted February 05, 2010 03:41 PM
I feel your pain Raymond. I have to deal with guys like that at least 2 or 3 times a month. Sometimes it's for a 14' x 48' billboard bag and all they can come up with is a logo from their website... or "what's a vector?" or "the guy that made the original art is out of the country right now and won't be back until next month."
posted February 05, 2010 03:43 PM
Raymond, you've just had confirmation that there is a huge difference between knowledge and wisdom. My late grandmother used to say that anyone can get knowledge, but if they don't use it to the advantage of their family or community, then they're nothing but an educated fool.
Try to cut this graphic designer some slack. Who knows, once they get some practical working knowledge to go with what they've learned so far, there may be still some hope for them yet.
I can still recall making some really raw rookie mistakes, but I also remember most fondly, those who took the time to set me straight and showed me the errors of my ways. Those folks helped me to become better at making my living, and will always have my gratitude.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted February 05, 2010 03:44 PM
Happens to all of us, Ray.
What kind of degree does one need to merit the title "graphic designer"? A BA? I wonder, if we graduated with a degree in GD, would it help us, or would we, too, lose all sense of what we are doing?
[ February 05, 2010, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted February 05, 2010 03:45 PM
Designers....I'm working with a self professed designer. More is more. Even more is better yet. I wrote him an email saying "The trouble is you do de-signing and I do signing which probably explains why we seem to have so much trouble reaching consensus." I should have actually sent it.
[ February 05, 2010, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Perhaps you could have sent him the proof just as he wanted it...his layout placed on a 4'x8' panel with large areas of white space on each end of the panel. Then ask him if that was what he had in mind?
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 05, 2010 06:10 PM
Hay this is why I went to school for graphic design. So I could say I have this degree that says I know something! Do you think school has washed away my 10 years of sign experience? I hope not. .
When I did construction I would curse the architect all the time 2 dimensional drawings don't always work in a 3 dimensional world. One guy would just have me sketch what I ended up building and rework his drawing to match. I don't think he was calling them as built ether. Just billing for my redesign.
posted February 05, 2010 08:00 PM
Why do people always assume that the person on the other end is highly paid? I have never understood that. I have design degree, and it has never landed me a job that I would consider "high-paying". If it's the fate of all graphic designers to be highly-paid, my ship is a little late coming in. Hurry up!
I do have to question the credentials of anyone who doesn't know what a vector is, or what resolution means, or who sends out work from PowerPoint. That doesn't sound like much of a designer to me.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted February 05, 2010 09:13 PM
I think a lot of the problem is these companies look on signs as something unimportant. They assign any design work to somebody really low on the totem pole. This guy probably is stuck making coffee too. I've run into this problem ( the layout not being in proportion to the substrate ) many times before. It's a first cousin to the architect drawn sign where every dimension is carefully spelled out and the dimensions for a 4x8 always add up to 53"-55" x 96"
I get a great kick out of dealing with "educated fools"....I know, I know, I'm sick
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted February 05, 2010 09:47 PM
It's that kind of reverse contempt that I'm talking about, George. You assume they are educated, when it's often not the case.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I wonder if the foolks who make fake IDs also make the degrees for some of these so-called designers?
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted February 05, 2010 09:53 PM
I think 'Doctorer' is an excellent title. I've repaired and doctored up more "camera-ready" artwork than I can shake a stick at.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted February 06, 2010 10:18 AM
There's bad apples in every profession, and not every BFA is equal. Lot depends on where you went to school, as some design schools are clearly better than others. (After reviewing the last 200 applicants for our designer position I have open, I can certainly attest to that!)
But like what was said above, the difference between vector and bitmap should be 'Working with Images 101' stuff.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted February 06, 2010 04:34 PM
A formal education in any field should include the basics. All of the things we discussed were "basics" in my interpretation. While signage may not be the majority of what a Graphic Designer does, it should certainly be a part of their education.
Business cards and brochures may not be my main line of work, but if I'm going to take on that area of design I should equip myself to know the basics and what is right or wrong.
Of course, in the field experience equips us with more infomation but if I'm going to pay someone tuition money for an education I should at least receive something practical for my time and expenses.
Having a degree to hang on the wall is nice, but it doesn't guarantee you know anything. I have a degree but not in Graphic Design.
Dan mentioned the opening for a designer with his firm, but I couldn't work there because he requires a BFA degree and I don't have one of those. Does that mean that I'm not a good designer? Hopefully not - it just means that I don't have a degree.
My degree is a BSEd but what I paid for had very little to do with my success as a teacher. Most of my education towards teaching came as a result of teaching. The classroom theory that I sat through (and paid big bucks for) had almost nothing to do with the real world.
In no way am I against formal education. It's very important, but it is only a means to an end, not the end itself.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted February 06, 2010 05:10 PM
The problem mostly lies with the lack of crossing-over or teaching for the real world. I know of a "graphic designer" who TEACHES and does logo/design work on the side. He sent me over a logo he did for a new customer of mine.... it was clipart (vector) with a bad jpg on top of it. He didn't seem to understand what vector meant. Did I mention he teaches this stuff?????
I have also had a GD ask me what pantone was when I asked for the pantone #s.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 06, 2010 06:40 PM
I guess the program I attended was much different. It was difficult to get in, and it was easy to get kicked out. Every year they did a portfolio review, and anyone who wasn't making it didn't come back. As a consequence, all of the people I went to school with were very sharp.
Anyone who doesn't know what a pantone color is has never printed anything.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted February 06, 2010 07:42 PM
How is it "we" seem to know what vectors, curves, outlines, pantone, bitmaps, masks, white (or negative) space, layout, compression etc etc etc within the first 6 months, with no qualification... and these dudes DON'T know after a full degree?
Probably desire.
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted February 06, 2010 11:44 PM
All things considered, I'm amazed that "Graphic Designers" don't realize that they need to design to output devices and scales.
I've talked to many people over the years and gotten that "blank stare" when they want to design something and the first thing I say is, "OK -- what are the specs? How will it be printed/cut/etc.? On what machine? At what size?"
I guess it's because people don't usually work "backwards" in their thought processes. I used to do mazes as a kid and it was always easier to work them backwards. I think this is the same idea.
If you start with how it will be output, and then work backwards to your design it will be perfect. Maybe "schools" don't teach it that way?
Always has bugged me.
One of the really nice things about the sign industry is that we operate this way automatically. It's a result of experience and really highlights the difference between the school of the street and the school of "higher learning."
Simple example: I have to design a magazine ad at 300dpi resolution -- so if I want a 2"x2" graphic in it, what do I do? Design it and output it at 600x600 pixels. All it takes is a calculator! File formats be damned - PIXELS matter!
True story: I submitted a JPEG ad to a magazine once, and was told that because it was a JPEG they couldn't take it - had to be a TIF. Never mind that the JPEG was output with no loss, at the proper resolution - they maintained that JPEG was not the right format. Was their production department clueless?
I'm tired and ranting, but thanks Raymond, this pushed a button of mine and it was nice to vent. I feel your pain. ;-)
P.S. Dan -- the reason 90% of wraps are a complete disaster is because designers never learn the sign maker's "rules of the road" -- legibility trumps everything. Red on black anyone? I have seen some truly horrific wraps. Honestly, it makes me grateful I'm selling software at this point.
[ February 06, 2010, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: And on the flip side, can someone explain why 90% of every wrap on the road is a complete disaster?
Maybe because 90% of the time wraps aren't what is needed. A clean concise layout specifying who, what and how to get a hold of you is more important. So sign designers and graphic designers alike, over design and use all the bells and whistles at their disposable because it is just to hard to resist not too.
Dan, regarding one of your previous comments on sign people and their printed designs looking like signs is correct on many occasions. Maybe a case can be made that one group crosses over to the other side better but the fact is we are all intermixed now with the new technologies at our disposal.
Still it does seem that our profession discourages or weeds out the riff raff easier that in than the graphic design field. More room and jobs in their field maybe?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted February 07, 2010 12:15 PM
David - totally right - 90% of wraps are usually not what the clients need. Unfortunately, most wrap companies aren't ever going to advocate that, as clearly it's not in their best interest to do so.
One thing in my first or second logo book that I talked about is how most graphic designers design for print first then consider it's implications on the outdoor realm later. Whereas the opposite is usually true when sign people first design a logo - as outdoor is their first task.
Interestingly enough, a logo designed properly for outdoor will always work fine on print. Just not the other way around, generally. And when you are dealing with small businesses, outdoor is generally their most important usage.
I think its much easier to get into the sign business though than getting a good job as a Graphic Designer at an agency, etc. I mean how cheap are those 12 inch plotters these days? Buy one and your a signmaker (apparently) all of the sudden. Although just as bad are those with FrontPage calling themselves web desigers.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted February 07, 2010 04:26 PM
Dan A... never did a wrap... never will.
To me...EVERY single wrap I have EVER seen looks like 100,000 corn kernels on a table.
No doubt I missed the 10% but I am sure it is out there somewhere in "wrap land".
Throw all your clothes in one corner and at some point, it's gonna get hard to find what your'e looking for. Add more and it becomes impossible. Now turn around at 35mph and grab what you want.
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