posted
It looks professional but is quite text-heavy. Usually when I see something filled with text I don't read it. With signs, I'd rather see them speak for themselves. (but all I have is a GoDaddy site, which I just took a lot of text out of) I think Dan A is an absolute genius, and I often wonder if he is like the rest of us, with his hands tied by the client. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I like the site. I think it is effective and even if someone doesn't read ALL the text, they can immediately see that it is a 'Sign' business by the header and get to the pictures.
It's all in what you want from your website. Different uses require a different machine... it's like the difference between loading cow poop and bush-hogging the pasture. Both require a tractor, but you need a front-end-loader to do one job and a rotary mower for the other... neither one will do the other's job. You can have both attachments on the tractor at the same time, but sometimes one will get in the others way...
For getting leads and advertisement, I believe Raymond's site will be awesome. After only a few days of being up, I can type in 'Texas carved sign' and he's halfway up the second page in Google. That's worth a ton!! Out of the thousands of sign companies in Texas, that is impressive!!
As time goes on, he will soon be on the first page of Google for a LOT of different search terms... to me, that is very important. In a world of total advertisement bombardment from every direction, if you can actually connect with someone who is actively LOOKING for a business, it's a big accomplishment...
I believe Raymond will see returns on his site very soon....
Grampa Dan obviously has a different purpose in mind.... to me, his site is basically like a glorified portfolio. No one is going to find his site unless it's someone that's read an article about him or someone he's handed a business card to at the home shows or other places... his site is very very nice for the "Yes, you can see my work at soandso.wut" but that is all it's good for. If Dan sends someone to his site they will be VERY impressed with his work...
However, if I'm looking to build a themed environment or themed sign, and I've never heard of Imagination Corporation, there is absolutely not a chance in hell I'll find it. Even a narrow search, such as 'Vancouver themed environments', 'Chilliwack themed environments', 'Chilliwack themed signs', or 'Chilliwack signs' will not bring up his site... (other than a couple references from a blog that's been blasted on here.) Even if I'd heard of him, but didn't know the name of his company, I wouldn't be able to find him...
So it's a difference in ideas and desired results from your website... my opinion is different than Grampa Dan's about his own business, but he knows it 10x better than I do.... my first thought is that it'd benefit Dan even more than Raymond to pop up in the first Google results for the different search terms describing his business.... there are a lot less companies that do what he does, so his chances of getting a job from someone LOOKING for that work are a lot greater. The jobs are generally large so just a few would make a huge difference in cash-flow. Personally, I think that for Grampa Dan, being ranked high in Google in a lot of different areas could potentially be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars...
(as opposed to my opinion, which is only worth 2 cents)
[ February 05, 2010, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Let me jump back in here and make a few comments.
First, it was not my intention to pit parties against each other but simply to display the site that Dan designed for me.
Both Dans are friends and have been for years. Both are huge talents and great heros of mine. Each have also been the target of a lot of jabbing from me (all in good fun, of course).
Most of the folks who post here have tastes that are unique to them. We do not all think exactly alike...and that's a good thing. While I admire the body of work of each of the Dan's, I have no desire to be exactly like them or produce the same types of designs. What I do try to emulate is their passion and professionalism.
Thanks to all for not allowing this thread to digress into name calling and personal attacks. We all are learners here.
For a long time both Dans (along with a lot of other folks) have been on my case about getting a web site. A long time ago I purchased Dreamweaver with the intention of producing my own site - even read a bunch of tutorials and watched a lot of videos. My history with computers and things technical has not been all that positive, so the the web site continued to be on the back burner.
With the recent economic downturn there was more time to pursue getting a site together. The more I read and observed, the more confused I became.
Then my great friend, Antonelli comes along and has pity on me and offers to do a slim budget site for me, to at least get me on the web and have a site that would be attractive to both the viewers and the search engines.
Dan went way beyond the "second mile" in getting this site up and running. Technical problems jumped up from the beginning, mainly because of the host server that I had chosen and many hours beyond the budgeted amount were spent trying to chase down all the gremlins. Don't ask me what they where because I couldn't tell you...just that many hours were involved, both by Dan and his staff.
Now, would have I designed the site differently if I had done it myself? Most likely. Every sign that I design will carry my personality and style. That doesn't make it better or worse than one you would design - just different.
I relied upon Dan's technical knowledge to design a site that would make me visible to anyone searching for what I produce. The photos I sent to him represented what I do, and want to do. Dan is good at what he does - he has a proven track record. For me to tell Dan what to do technically would be absurb. We may disagree on design principles and we have from time to time, but we still remain friends.
My history proves that the business end of this craft is lacking for me, but Dan has a mind that is geared to success in business. For me to try to tell him how to run a business would be comical. I will stand by my body of work when it comes to design, and hopefully not come across as arrogant. Sawatzky's style is not mine, but he is successful with it. I don't like rust and he does.
At some point will I design and build my own site? Maybe...but it would probably be a long process and very frustrating. A long time ago I found out that I wasn't an automobile mechanic. My brother, Wayland, could take anything apart and put it back together and it would work perfectly. My history was that it wouldn't run and I would have a bunch of parts left over...and in the process I had broken two other things that now needed to be fixed. Suddenly, I realized that I'm not good at everything and sought out people that were good at what they did and I did what I did best. Rather than working on my car, I painted a sign for the mechanic in exchange for him fixing what was broke.
Am I satisfied with Dan's site? Certainly. I'm confident that it will help the phone to start ringing (with something other than bill collectors) and that it will market me in a positive manner.
Some of you have pointed out things that you would change. I don't disagree with any of them, but then I could probably suggest some ways that might improve your design abilities. It's a matter of choice and taste.
Thanks for reading this long thread. Keep posting your thoughts here on Letterville. We all learn from each other. But remember that none of us are perect. An example is that Antonelli still uses a Mac.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Interesting (and civil) comments from everyone - I finally put up a site after being embarrassed to tell potential customers I had no web presence. It's still being fine-tuned, so I won't throw it out there yet, but it's a no-frills portfolio site. I swapped a window lettering job for the web design and it's certainly not going to knock anybody's socks off, but like Raymond, the budget won't allow for extravagance.
Someone told me that Google ads would drive more eyeballs to the site, but I haven't looked into it yet. Does anyone here use them and can you explain how it works? If this is too tangential for this thread, I can spin it off to another post. Thanks........
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I built my own site a few years ago with dreamweaver4 and coreldraw9, I do not have a domain name but one of my customers paid his web guy to give me a redirect. Its not fantastic but I like it and it also is more of an online portfolio:
after the last few years of internet presence, just typing in JP Graphics I am number six and my old tripod site which I abandoned long ago is number eight.
Like Neil I have a facebook presence also but I made a fan page:
-------------------- Jon Peterman 200 Summit Loop Grants Pass, OR -------------------- a.k.a. dc-62 success is in Jesus Christ Posts: 434 | From: grants pass or. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just want to interject something else on this thread too, because I think it often goes by unnoticed and certainly unappreciated. And that is copy writing.
Personally, I'm also more of a visual person, and don't like to have to read alotta stuff. Give me pictures!
But, I have customer's hit me up about helping me do the wording on brochures or websites for them, and then it's like pulling teeth to get info from them about their own business. I'm left to come up with something informative, captivating, catchy and all that jazz to intice someone to become interested, and stay interested ... and to basically convey much needed info.
I'll tell you ... this is an artform in itself! Not to mention the TIME it takes to do!
I don't know how many times I put a website page together graphically for someone (including my own site) and then said ... oh yeah, now what do we want to say on it?
Hence, for myself I just copped out and put "our work speaks for itself, I'll just let the pictures do the talking". haha
But really, copy writing is very important. I just read some of the stuff on Ray's site and Dan did a bang up job on it.
Okay, well I just wanted to draw some attention on one of the necessary skills needed for our industry ... and one that so often goes unvalidated.
~ nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Nice work Joe! I love that your first link is to your church. You have a nice body of work, and your site does a good job of showing it in an organized, easy to understand manner. It is quite simple but reflects your work well.
You should consider your own domain, and using some of the techniques talked about here to make you more visible!
posted
I think Jill is my new best friend. Maybe she can talk to my wife about that genius thing. I try telling her the same thing, and I get "Go change the baby's diaper, genius!"
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Jon Peterman has much talent and although the economy may be slow, nothing stops this father of five from accomplishing his goals. From his hand made soaps which I use daily, to his screen printed shirts which he has been doing for at least twenty years, sign painting, vinyl, building robots and WMD flame throwers for his party bonfires, 3D signage and ideas put to work I myself as well as you out there are extremely proud of his works.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
ANother point of discussion is about the 'style' of our websites. Dan made the comment about it should not be designed to my taste but instead to that of my customer or those that search my site. I would agree to a point. When designing a project for a customer this is certainly true. I often remind my clients that what they like is not necessarily where we should go with their project.
I would argue differently about my own website however. The purpose of my site is to display and sell my own work. I have a definite style as does Dan Antonelli and every other sign person. I believe our websites should reflect our own personal style. The sign shop owner should definitely have a good deal of input in how their site looks.
But I also agree (I think) with Dan that I know little (or perhaps nothing) about how it should operate. Posting, coding and some of the design that relates to how it is found on the web should be left in the hands of those who are more knowledgeable in these things. And I will certainly do more of that the next go around.
If Dan I I sat down and discussed these things at length we would probably agree on most points. We certainly agree on what brand of computer to buy and use...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do like the way you think, Raymond. Furthermore, it must be a bit difficult to show off your new site and have it hashed apart. You have handled that well. Kudos.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Don't get me wrong, Dan S., I love the 'look' of your site... it's very cool and fits your style.
I just think that a website that could maintain your look, but would be SEO friendly and allow new contacts to find you via search engines would be huge. Especially since you are one of a few companies with your capabilities. You'd have a lot higher chance of converting contacts into sales than some of us. In North America, there are probably 50,000 sign shops that do that same thing I do.... and 50 that do the same thing you do...
The type and caliber of work you do... you could probably hire Dan A. and Joe D. to collaborate on a killer site, and it pay for itself in the first job you scored from it.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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David, I think the reason that I like you so much is that you are weird. And you make me laugh...which is good thing. Does that mean that I have a sick mind, too?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You're just a natural-born troublemaker, Ray. Not many can put up a seemingly innocent post showing what nice thing someone had done for you and trigger this kind of reaction from a group of people who may be nuttier than squirrel poop.
posted
Hahaha... Sonny.... I don't think my small zings would hang with those Texas sized ones.... (at least I've heard... out there everyzing is bigger..)
My equation is a little more complicated than David's.
1. David=X 2. X=Wit/2 3. Jon=X/2
[ February 06, 2010, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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I think Ray has a great site and will be very happy with his results.
For what its worth I would like to share some testimony that I spent lots of hard earned money to experience.
quote: One point you make is making sure that you personally like your site. ...it's actually incorrect, if only in the sense that it makes no difference what you personally like. That's where I see a flaw in your line of thinking.. etc...
What you personally like is actually irrelevant. etc .
I attended several high priced marketing seminars and found myself reversed on nearly every single idea in real world marketing and advertising. Frankly, the college professors, books and courses all lied. They don't have a clue.
In this thread I watch Dan A and a few others reinforcing the same expensive lessons I had to learn the hard way.
Getting to the point. I was told that what I liked meant nothing. The only thing that mattered was what impressed those that mattered (new clients)and only that which was proven by statistics and actual tests.
In short I went with the recommendations from the marketing guru at that time. RT the air brusher from this site helped paint up the lobby. He knows exactly what it looked like. Thick Carpet, New Furniture and wall graphics was all a plan. (seems to me I remember Dan A mentioning his set up is planned too) When the lobby was done so it matched the image from the marketing plan the business stats began to set records on growth and income. Those who know me personally watched as I paid off my house, all the bills and got new vehicles etc.
Lesson #1 well proven and accepted.
Next point concerning well written ad copy.
quote: I just want to interject something else on this thread too, because I think it often goes by unnoticed and certainly unappreciated. And that is copy writing.
Thank you janet..
At one time ad reps did the ads for my bizz and said copy with graphics with a huge logo were important. That was a big lie. The ads were just a money pit. The marketing guru shot down the ad sales people's concepts with his own proof. I wish you could hear them ad rep's howling when I changed their dead formats. The guru showed proof that a page of well written copy using the right trigger words works. Following the guru's lead I wrote a few ads with all copy and no graphics. I cannot begin to say how much better our ads produced results.
Lesson #2 well learned.
And then, I recently reopened and threw up a home made website. At first it was 5 pages back in the google search. As Jon pointed out SEO is very important. After spending a little time and getting the SEO right the home made cheapy website went to the first page and the calls started coming in.
In summary. All that Dan A does and says in his marketing for websites is well proven by those who use those techniques and then pay big bucks to get the statistics research to make sure they work. No wonder Dan A has time to go bike riding...
As Janet said the way things are said is the only thing that matters. Ad copy writing an art form. Saying the right thing at the right time with a few proper key words really makes a difference. I have proof of this too.
As Jon was trying to point out that a good copy writer who writes the ad copy will move a website from obscurity to the forefront. This is proven as well. How? Some "pro" redid my site a few weeks ago and sucks on results.. He promised the moon and if it didn't work I wouldn't have to pay. Well, I am sitting here with my check and working in getting the site back to where it should be.
I dream about having Dan A write my site some day. I know it would be worth every penny. He has the total package all in one. Ad copy, Graphics and SEO..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Thanks, Curtis! 'Scratch their itch' is my simple summary of all of that. The customer needs to be convinced you're the one for them.
One subject mentioned earlier I might gently bring up: the hyphens... I don't know the deal between Dan and Ray, but I looked into a hypenated name in our website, for a reason, a while back. There used to be a time when having a hyphen helped in SEO, and using it gave you an opportunity to get a name which someone else might have had without the hyphens. I did some research late last year, and Google apparently have changed the way their engines or spiders ranked sites, and apparently where there were merits in hyphens beforehand, now there are not.
I believe the way it works now is that if you googled, for instance the two words, Texas and signs, then the first site Google looks for is www.texassigns.com and it'll rank that no.1
Earlier last year, and previously in history, a hyphen in the name gave the SEO two (or more) words to help look for, while no hyphen between them was not as useful.
Anyhow I'm still just an enthusiastic amateur, and I don't mean to be criticising Raymond's url, just offering my interpretation of the titbit of info I gleaned not long ago when considering registering a hyphenated website name.
(Edited to add, that with a hyphen in my surname, I've learned to live with it, but having to spell it out to a client that it's a hyphen and not an underscore nor a slash, and the hyphen is the minus sign, no, you don't need to spell the word 'hyphen' just type the dash and don't use the shift button...so running-on words are much easier to spell out! )
[ February 07, 2010, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I want to congratulate Ray with his site! The buzz getting your first email or phonecall through the website is adictive and very thrilling. I hope you will get them soon and often. But the comfort feeling that you can go to bed and the site is still there for all who wants to have the information is THE thing I still love with my site.
On the topic: Dan verus Dan. I have to agree with both. Mister S. I agree that the site has too much text, which could be devided in to four or five pages. Mister A. I agree that it is better to have a site that can be found and read, than a site that is beautifull, but can not be found by a potential client.
With a low budget this is in my opinion the best way to go. Greatly done Mister A. From here you can build further. But allways remember, a first view must nice to look at, make you hungry to see more.
Erik (with to may subjects on his website and will devide them soon into two!)
quote:I personally wasn't prepared to make the visual sacrifices to achieve a higher web ranking. I still hold that view.
I would like to know if I can indeed have my cake and eat it too.
-grampa dan [/QB]
Mister S. Like I tried to tell you last year three times: Yes you can have your eye candy site if you only type the words with your own font in html text. That's it!
Completly the same beautifull view, photo's, design and eye candy, but findable by words.
If you have just a little money to spend, send Mister A. all your webpage data and he can do it for you within one week and I think on a low budget also. You will have both of two and even people in the Netherlands will find you when the type keywords in google like " Theme signs and environments".
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: I hope this discussion goes for a while yet... because I DO want to learn more about this subject. Thanks for taking the time to discuss the subject!
I'm all ears in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
I remember my mooth was zipped, by Dan, within one minute after mentioning the Sawatzky site not being searchable when I was in Yarrow.
I am not as humble and nice as Kelly, but I thought it was best to keep further advise for my self and a good atmosphere.
[ February 07, 2010, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Erik Winkler ]
quote: I would like to know if I can indeed have my cake and eat it too.
No Dan S. You cannot violate the laws of physics in this universe. The search bots cannot read your mind. They only read the html code. Thats the present laws of website placement. All it takes is a few words strategically placed and you will have it.
yes dave,, you are right.. hehe It did work/look like puke on the first draft.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Also understand and respect both Dan's for their talents and abilities, rating very highly in their given enviroments.
I visited Dan A's site some time back, I love all your graphic work, have the books, read most of what you write in SC etc, so when you are used to so much eye candy was dissappointed by your site first page.....but understand the "google SEO etc etc".
I also understand Dan Sawatsky's need to show the great work he produces, I know you put all that together first off in Photoshop, and think I mentioned once before in conversation that a great tool for you would be Sitegrinder, as for designers etc you do all you know best in photoshop, add a few simple hints for pages or functions, using layers and layer comps, and then press "build" , its a plugin for photoshop.
You build text in text boxes, and follow a few simple steps regarding spacing and layout off you go.
Am currently betatesting the next version of it, which has some great improvements,so would gladly mess around with a copy of your photoshop files mail them back or host them so you see the changes, in ranking with same functionality.
Google "themed environments" and no sign of yourselves I went through several pages, I searched just "sawatsky" and after a view pages saw a link for Peter.
I think it would be fun to try and help each other and this has been a great topic to begin discussing those things.
I really like what Joe Diaz does too, he gets some very good looking sites together that are not text heavy but graphically very appealing, again I know that once you've seen a flash site a few times you may want to jump past some of the effects and get to the important bits, but we are all different, thank god, and so you are never going to please all of the people all of the time
I know the frustrations and limited time over for the things that are probably some of the most important, our own shop window.
I have been messing about myself for ages and not happy with the results.
I put a site up to see what it might look like a year ago on a domain I don't use, it was done quickly over a couple of evenings, and never got finished.....story of my life
www.signcraftab.se the link on the main menu frigolit works as do the 2 lower pictures centre and left.
Have since last autumn started on a new, and am currently on another version, here is a pic of the photoshop file.
Oh yeah! I never won an award for my hands, but they were the award so thought I could play with words abit there!
Congratulations Raymond!!
[ February 07, 2010, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Henry Barker ]
posted
Boy, I am still new to the sign business but this seems like a great article for SignCraft magazine. Just an overview of the info here and points of information for all of us who want to make the most of a website at whatever level and preference we are at. My site drives me nuts but I have not made the time to keep up with what I can afford. What I will say is that I am taking every erg of info here in contemplating what I can do next. I really enjoy all I am learning here and this time without all the extra stuff.
posted
Raymond, please keep us posted as to how effective the site is in producing realistic leads for the kind of work you want to be doing. That is the bottom line from my perspective.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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With so many sites using probes that reveal certain data about your machine...
Some may wish to know that script blockers are coming out that will deny access to your personal data stored on your machine. These scripts also block FLASH from playing.
Here is a test to show you what sites are extracting what data from your machines.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Thanks for your post. I am glad you recognize that personal preference of a small business owner is not nearly as relevant as the preferences of their target audiences.
I can always tell right away when interviewing a new potential client if this is going to be a problem. Those with an open mind that let me do what I know is in their best interest wind up with fabulous work. Those who constrain my efforts by well-intentioned, but misinformed preconceived notions, often do not get the best possible results.
You know when a client says 'you're the professional - do what you think' that you're going to hit a homerun.
I need to remind myself though, that often a small business' only idea of marketing or advertising is what the yellow page ad salesman has told them over the years. While they may be fabulous at what they do in their given professions, most haven't a clue about marketing and advertising.
And Mister Winkler. Stop calling me Mr. A. I'm turning 40 this year which is bad enough ---
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Some have mentioned the domain name. Back in 2004 I reserved my domain name for whenever I got around to having a web site.
At that time everything with "Chapman" and "Design" was taken so the hyphens were added to keep the name of the business together - "Chapman Design Studio".
Yes, it may be difficult to say but I don't think that I'll have to vocalize it all that often. Most references will be made by email or business cards or such.
Also, thank you for the professional way that you have responded to this thread. You have given good suggestions for both sides without reverting to name calling.
I sure that both Dans have a few dents in their armor, but they both are receptive to constructive criticism and will survive.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
Furthermore, it must be a bit difficult to show off your new site and have it hashed apart. You have handled that well. Kudos. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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