Thanks to Dan Antonelli who put this thing together and went the extra mile when nothing seemed to want to work together the right way.
It is what Dan calls an "Antonelli Lite" web site. It is not his all-out bells and whistles type of site (which he normally does) but had to fall within a low budget.
I just sent Dan some photos and he took it from there. Thanks for your patience and determination, Mr. Antonelli.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is great! I would however make two suggestions; 1- Make your logo twice as big. 2- Make the moving graphics and messages stop after cycling 1 or 2 times. It makes reading the rest difficult.You could have a little recycle, or stop button for them too. Just my thoughts on it I hope you don't mind.
It was with great excitement I clicked on Raymond's new web site. And it was done by none other than Dan Antonelli too!
I tempered my enthusiasm with the knowledge Raymond's new site was done on a budget. I know the feeling in these times like many of us do.
When I clicked on the link I held my breath...
I expected to see Raymond's awesome work displayed in an awesome way. I expected a graphical masterpiece that drew me in - made we want more. I suspected the site would be brief on account of a restricted budget... but I thought what was presented would be breath taking.
What I saw was... well... ordinary.
I have no doubt the site is organized and set up to rank at the very top of the web browsers. It opened instantly and without issues. It undoubtably has all the right code and meta tags and all that kind of stuff. I know Dan is real fussy about those things. And I know most sites lack those things (including mine as Dan pointed out)
But frankly, this web site a cake with no icing. There's tons of text presented in a very business like way.
I expected much more.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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It may be ordinary, but his search engine results within 2 weeks of launching ain't.
Everything there is done for a strategic reason - with most heavy emphasis being on SEO.
While I know the expectations are very high given Ray's body of work, I'm pretty confident that any business owner viewing it will have nothing but a favorable first impression of it.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Dan & I agree on most things in business. But when it comes to websites I think we differ quite a bit.
Ranking at the very top in search engine results should definitely bring people to the sites he builds. My point of contention is that what they find when they get there is JUST AS IMPORTANT.
Raymond has an incredible body of work. The guy is a master. The opening page of the new website isn't about that.
We in the sign business stress CONSTANTLY to our customers that fewer words are better... more readable. The first page of the website is OVERRUN with text. I realize that it may be the way to rank high in the search engines... but it is BORING. It is counter to all we seek our customers to do on our work we do for them.
Isn't there way to do both??? Get high in the search engines and still present a site that presents our work in a graphical way??
Imagine walking into Raymond's office/showroom and seeing all this text on the walls. It simply doesn't work.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Congratulations on a beautiful website. And congratulation on getting the right artists to help you with it. Dan A. is the right fellow too.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Dan, not to belabor the point, but are you saying that your home page speaks to your incredible body of work?
The likelihood of anyone finding you via a search engine is slim. And maybe you don't want them to, or thats not important. We've had this discussion before - it's all good.
My own site brings in, on average, 30 leads a week. I can tell you that its much nicer having people find us, than me trying to find them.
Run through our list of sites here, and their corresponding search engine results and you decide if we accomplished the mission of SEO and site aesthetics at the same time.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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It's a nice looking site, and I'm betting it is extremely functional, but I admit that I too find the changing signs and heading extremely distracting while trying to read the text below.
[ February 04, 2010, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again? -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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It often goes back to what is more important... form or function.
On our own web site I don't worry about who the search engines might send to us. If someone knows our name they can easily find us however.
I look on our site as an online portfolio. I know that our site is often recommended to other folks because of our 'eye candy'. THAT brings us business. And this is the referral I want rather than simply a high count via a web search engine.
When I went to Raymond's site I wondered if I should post my thoughts... ie: say only good or say nothing at all. I decided I would post my thoughts in the interest of hopefully an in-depth discussion about this subject.
I appreciated Dan's comments and opinion when he critiqued my site back when it went up. His points are certainly valid and correct. I personally wasn't prepared to make the visual sacrifices to achieve a higher web ranking. I still hold that view.
I would like to know if I can indeed have my cake and eat it too.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Honestly, just last week I was Viewing Dan's A Website and was a little dissapointed at all the very Heavy Text on the opening pages... but I thought that I'd keep my opinions to myself, for I felt a little out of place critizing someone of Dan's talent especially on logo design. When I clicked on Rays site, the same result. I had to go find the Eye Candy, my own opinion is that the Eye Candy should find you.. same as a Lettering Job on a van, sign, whatever.
Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but maybe Dan A's sites are a result of extensive research.. but you know what they say... Don't judge a book by it's cover.... Cover meaning opening page.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I agree 100% Neil, sometimes its pretty intimidating to say anything critical about something created by the likes of Dan and Dan. Still, I think it is important and we owe it to them to give honest and fair feedback. It's hard to know how you are progressing without honest feedback.
As to all the SEO stuff...I deleted my question in the earlier post because by the time I had it worded where I felt comfortable, my questions were answered. So here is a new one based solely on curiosity: The text on that page is a way around what Google is trying to prevent by not allowing it to be hidden. How long before Google decides you aren't allowed to put all that information visibly on your page either, and if they do, will the removal cost the client extra$?
As to the look of the site and the importance of different aspects, I guess that depends on your goals. Raymond has been saying that things have been uncomfortably slow this past while. I suspect getting new clients to his web site is quite important to him. I think the site will serve him well and though I too would have liked to see more of his work flashed across the home page, it isn't me he is catering too.
I also suspect that being distracted by the flash content is something that people who are more visually stimulated are susceptible to. Perhaps those who actually end up being the ones who do the purchasing are types who like that type of thing. I'm thinking that Dan has very likely done his homework on that.
[ February 04, 2010, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again? -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Geez....just don't look at my site. The poor dog has been floating in the pool working on his tan since August. I've really got to find the time to complete the site and get it uploaded. The dog has got to be all wrinkly by now.
posted
I purposely read all comments before I opened the link. I guess I wanted to see the written opinions BEFORE settling on mine.
Without an opinion - remember I had not seen the site - it was interesting to see the "banter" between Dan and Dan. To me, I could see both trying to justify their comments and to some degree criticisms / reasons. Although I am not a webbie techy guy, I can see both sides. Technical or Visual?
So... here is my 2 cents and I will try to give comment on each.
Firstly, I understand that Ray was on a tight budget. I also understand that Dan is a businessman. I accept that any web site can be updated, as work rolls in. POSSIBLY a better arrangement may have been to do the site "top notch" now - get it over and done with - for Ray's budget amount. As the site created increased work - a financial balance could be paid by Ray to Dan. I do not know Ray, but given his "standing" within our Community, and the respect others have for him... I am sure that a goodwill gesture might be afforded in this instance. I accept that goodwill gestures do not pay bills - before you hammer me down on that one.
I personally do not like hyphens in domain names. Ray is going to suggest that clients look at his website. To rattle of "Chapman hyphen Design hyphen Stdio.com" is going to be a right Royal pain in the a##.
I agree with Dana - there is a large background with a small logo. Losing the reflection would allow it to be larger and thus more dominant. There is no dimension to it (logo), and the "C" could definately be made to look gilded in Illustrator, Corel etc.
The images used do not "mesh". Travis Tea Rooms and Stagecoach look great, but Belton looks the antithisis of the quality work of the others. Especially if the niche market is where Ray wants to be.
I agree with Dan S that there is way way way way way too much text. This COULD potentially have been split over several pages "About Us", "Services Available" etc. You get my drift.
I totally dislike the portrait (vertical) section on the right, with the keywords, zip codes etc. I fully accept that this is an SEO tactic, but could have been smaller, and "Landscape" across the bottom of the page. There but not there.
Stats, facts, figures, No 1 SEO, # 2 in 6.2m awards etc do not wash with me. Only one counts - the job in front of you. Ray's site (once again I accept the price difference) should work and represent him well. Dan A's "Fitzgerald Sign" is one of my all time favourite sites.
The color theme used is, I must say second rate. Drab and to me - boring. Not exciting and inviting to at least pick up the phone and make an initial enquiry. Dave Butler to me is a master in color use. But this is not a comparison of people - rather color style useage.
Overall - I have to agree with Dan S.
"Ordinary".
Some years ago I really heeded the words of Dan Antonelli as an artist. It all made sense. I guess I have "grown" in my own direction, style, and what is visually appealing to me.
This is NOT a personal attack on ANYONE.
Each time we put our work out for assessment, we are opening ourselves up for critique, criticism, and of course commendation. It is the work that speaks. That's how we improve.
Not accepting critique or criticism is no different to the person that stands before you saying "I know, I know". Reality is they don't know and never improve. They later wonder why nobody cares to critique them anymore. Simply, they don't listen.
Honesty will often put you off side with others, and that is never my intention. Definately in this case. But I love websites that are clearly mindblowing and absent of the "template" look.
Not so sure you achieved that this time Dan.
Once again NOT a personal attack. That is not who I am. But I believe we are all entitled to comment. Some will voice it - others not. I would rather gain respect in many ways - one of them being able to offer honest and constructive comment.
Cheers - Gregg
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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PS. You might want to run spell check "that cares about you needs"... and check grammar. Not so sure it actually reads the best. Possibly write it from "our" point of view (using we, our, us) rather than "yours" ( they, them etc).
With respect to Dan A... I know he does foster other designers in his employ... maybe this is one that he did not have a lot of input into.
Dunno.
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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Yes, one of my junior designers worked on the site. Quick, down and dirty with heavy emphasis focused on SEO obviously. I realize that people have high expectations for the 'Dan Antonelli' brand, and I appreciate that high standard.
A few things to consider as it relates to SEO.
It's very difficult to achieve good SEO results on a single page web site like Ray's. Thus the need for a content-laden home page. Yes, aesthetics are sacrificed a bit, but fortunately most of Ray's competitors have sites which are horrible. I think Ray's is professional, and does the job its intended to- which is provide a quick portfolio site for people who call, and more importantly, provide a online source of leads for Ray.
As for some of Dan's points, who's work I hold in the highest esteem , I wanted to give my take on a few of his points (sorry I dont know how to do that quote thingy):
"On our own web site I don't worry about who the search engines might send to us. If someone knows our name they can easily find us however.
I look on our site as an online portfolio. I know that our site is often recommended to other folks because of our 'eye candy'. THAT brings us business. And this is the referral I want rather than simply a high count via a web search engine."
I appreciated Dan's comments and opinion when he critiqued my site back when it went up. His points are certainly valid and correct. I personally wasn't prepared to make the visual sacrifices to achieve a higher web ranking. I still hold that view."
Why would you not worry about what search engines might bring to you? That makes no sense to me. Can you explain to me the down side of search engine traffic - because you seem to have decided that nothing good can come of it - and I'm really not sure why. Yes, we all want referrals from existing clients. In the absence of them - then what do you do?
I would accept your premise of not wanting to sacrifice aesthetics for the sake of SEO, if your site had an outstanding design that really spoke to the quality you produce. But, given the level of detail and workmanship that goes into your masterpieces, your site is merely ho-hum as well. And I know you did it, and I don't mean to be critical - but given your reputation - I would have thought you would have a much better site. SOmething with more texture, visual interest, etc. Your home page is very, very bland. Feels homegrown, and even a little amateurish. The way it was built is the way you might build something 10 years ago (all pages as static graphics). Not being a web designer, you did a helluva job anyway. But in my view, it doesn't represent your quality as well as I think it should.
And of course, what do I know about what you were trying to accomplish or communicate with it. I just think it's short sighted and foolish to not build to address the needs of search engines, and to go with the 'people will find me cause those I worked with will recommend us' line of thinking. I just don't see the down side of building an SEO-friendly site that still kicks butt aesthetically.
I don't want to be too self promotional in making my point, as that's not my intention - but here's a few sites that I that accomplish both in terms of good aesthetics and SEO
So my point is, yes you can easily have both. For my own GDS site I make a ton of 'sacrifices' for aesthetics, thankfully mainly 'below' the fold. But google any term related to my business with NJ in the keyword and I'm #1. And I'll sacrifice a little aesthetics for it. Because at the end of the day, if no one finds or sees your web site, it doesn't matter how pretty it is.
And Dan, I hope this doesn't come across harsh. We have known each other through the site for a long time - and I truly have the utmost respect for what you do, what you've accomplished - and the values you hold. Not to mention your contributions to the craft. So - the answer to your question is -yes, you can have your cake in eat it.
(PS - We better not show Tom McIltrot this thread or he's gonna put us opposing pages of the newly designed Op-Ed pages LOL).
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I like it (except for the "necessary I guess" keyword area ... if you change the color of the text to the same as the background is that still frowned on by search engines?)
It's more clean and classy than boring to me. I like the animation too but think it's distracting and pointless on the gallery page.
The domain name kinda sucks IMO (the dashes)
Do you rank higher in the search engine by repeating "TX" 28 times... rather than 20 times... or 10?... does your ranking drop if some else's page repeats it 30 times? is there a magic number?
edit----- Noticed (just checked on 3 different computers) the animation doesn't really line up in the box. Looks like pixels are off a bit at the bottom.
[ February 04, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Mark Matyjakowski ]
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've read this twice, and looked at it, and I agree with both the Dans.
There's reason agood behind all moves in any direction, and parts of stories we're all unaware of, like budget, knowledge, time & ability.
This debate has a lot to offer us all.
Thanks. I just hope enough of the good points presented nicely here sink in and stick in my head, when we start to redo our site which, unlike Glenns, has already shrivelled up and sunk in the pool!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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You're a trouble maker Raymond. I've never seen so much flap ovar a darn website.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Speaking from experience...you're lucky you don't have a hyphen in your name, Joe...!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thanks for coming back and explaining your point of view more fully Dan. I would dearly love to sit at a table with you for a few hours and discuss work, design and life in general. I'll bet I would learn a lot. I would also bet it would be a spirited discussion. We would probably go away the very best of friends and yet probably not agree on a few things.
I don't want to be or sound defensive about my website but I would love to sound off on some of the logic I was thinking when I was building it... some of the very same logic I tend to fall back on when designing much of the work we do.
I do not like 'trends' or a 'corporate' look. The world around us tends to follow these trends and in the process takes on a look that is much the same. I am NOT a trend follower.
When we were building our website I purposely made it somewhat home grown. So many corporate web sites don't show the people, many don't even give an address. I wanted to put our face and stamp my style on it in a big way.
I am not saying I do not want to rank higher with the search engines or that it is not important to get hits from there.... not at all. But I am probably more reluctant than most to trade away aesthetics or 'the look' I like to do it.
I'm not a fan of flash or movement on a website in most cases... just like I don't put real movement into our sculptures. While the trend might be towards music or sounds effect I personally DO NOT LIKE THEM. The time, effort, and money they take in my view is better spent making things 'better' or bigger instead.
I wanted pictures to overlap and the text to wrap around the pictures... and my web designer (the guy who wrote my code) told me that these things would harm my site when it came time to rank the pages or load fast. I went ahead anyway. Would I recommend it to a client??? Probably not. Would I do it again?? Perhaps ... or not.
I have learned plenty since designing our web site the last time which will result in many changes to what I build the next go around. Before I do the next one I hope to learn a LOT more. Discussions like this one will be a large part of that process.
As always I am not particularly right or satisfied. But I know what I do not like (personally) or want. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Dan may be just the person to get us closer to that elusive goal the next time I do the website. I would certainly value his input and knowledge!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I spelled out texas and got much lower ranking.
Idea Ray are you interested in learning to manage your own site? You say business is slow; maybe you have the time to learn DreamWeaver.
When I got my latest site 5 years ago, I paid the website company for a few hours of tutoring in how to maintain my site. I read a book or two, looked online, fiddled with my site... Now it has about four times as many pages (one for every thing I can do), plus it's become interesting and SEO effective. I upload my latest and best photos and examples anytime I want; I hope some of it qualifies as eye-candy. We no longer need to pay for ads in any of the 3 yellow books here.
If you grow a talent for working with your website, my gut feeling is to add pages and make the site big and chatty. Would SignCraft allow you to include an article or two from their magazine? That would sure reinforce your status and credibility to sign purchasers even though they probably wouldn't usually read it all very thoroughly. When they've had their fill of reading and looking at pictures, viewers should then easily find your phone and email button on every page. You're a good writer, Ray, and I think that can add much to your site, but that requires more pages. My experienced guess is that people would also be happy with some nice photos of your work that are integrated into the text.
Nowadays I can hardly remember not being able to tweak my website at will. This thread inspires me to go do just that. I don't have a page on woodburned signs. Yet.
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I also have some questions regarding all that endless text that helps rank the website...
Can it's size be reduced or perhaps the text be used in a creative way to form the border of the site... perhaps as a background texture or something? Are there stated rules laid out somewhere? Can these rules be bent somewhat??? Are the rules likely to change?
I looked through Dan's website and the other websites he has designed a number of times today in the interest of learning just what he does to achieve the results he gets...
It seems to me he simply repeats certain terms and words endlessly in the effort to 'rank' highly. In my view it makes the reading of the text somewhat difficult. I wonder whether the effort doesn't undermine the content to the reader who goes to the web site for information. Are my concerns important or is it worth it to get high rankings!
To rank number one in the searches and then disappoint with the result would not be good either.
As I think of the terms or words we might use in our business to get high rankings I wonder what they might be? I've always had a tough time even describing our business to those that might ask. Filling out official forms is almost impossible. Guessing the words folks might use to search for us would undoubtably be a tough challenge.
I hope this discussion goes for a while yet... because I DO want to learn more about this subject. Thanks for taking the time to discuss the subject!
I'm all ears in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dan- you seem to be a "people person" and I think you can put yourself in the shoes of the searcher. I think you should try making a list of what words should bring those people to each of your pages by keeping a notepad in your pocket and jot down those words as they come to you, don't let them escape! I learned by doing because I could never afford SEO or adwords. Google "signs" and I'm invisible, of course. (Nor do I want to be found by anyone who would Google only that one word) Google "signs albany NY" and I'm usually first. I don't know how many folks will Google "signs yarrow BC" or exactly who you want to find you, but you can fine tune that. Ultimately, you can handle only so much work; hopefully it will be exactly the kind you specify in your website and people looking for grosser, cheaper stuff won't notice you because their search terms won't fetch your site and they won't waste your time.
(note: add "mural painter" to keywords)
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Jon Peterman 200 Summit Loop Grants Pass, OR -------------------- a.k.a. dc-62 success is in Jesus Christ Posts: 434 | From: grants pass or. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Great site Raymond! I am sure you are aware that it say "you" instead of "your" in the first sentence.
NIce job Dan A!
-------------------- Charles Borges de Oliveira Borges Lettering & Design Snohomish WA Posts: 352 | From: Snohomish WA | Registered: Mar 2003
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As a sign person in particular, your site should show right away that you know design. It should work on a 15" monitor as well as a 24" monitor. It should, as all business sights should, be clear and easy navigate even if it is only one page.
Put your self in the average persons shoes. They have no idea what SEO is about, so when they see it all shoved into a paragraph or two they may think; What is this person on drugs? Then wonder if dealing with them will be as difficult as reading there web site.
Here in New England people are tough to deal with, on guard and critical( at least I am ) so if they open a site for a sign guy and can't even read all the words on the guy's sign in the header of the site they will think; If he cant make his own sign readable what will he do with my sign.
Your web site can be the first impression on a potential customer so, as a design person your site had better show good communication and aesthetics as well.
Ray as I said you need a bigger header/ logo as on my 15" laptop I can't even read all of what it says, and it a nice design! The SOE my get you noticed, but if it is incoherent jumble; what will people think when they do notice it? It isn't much more work to add a page or two using the first page as a template, you would do well to move some content to other pages, or at least make it more organized. Perhaps two columns and the gallery centered on the bottom. Again the moving on the top would be fine if it stopped after one cycle, or if there were only one small paragraph to read on the page. I may only have an Associates degree in design,and little real work experience, but a lot of this is clear common sense.
Look at the Big Sky site that Dan A suggested, the flash stops after 1 cycle, the SEO is inconspicuous, on the bottom and in the smallest print. On yours your address and contact info is stuck on the bottom! This one is laid out in a logical order. None of these attributes would be any more work and shouldn't cost more to employ. Hopefully you are allowed 1 revision and will consider some of these simple suggestions. Please do look at the Big Sky site and see what I am talking about. Good luck
[ February 05, 2010, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Dana Stanley ]
We have much more in common than we would probably disagree about. One point you make is making sure that you personally like your site. While that is generally a good idea, it's actually incorrect, if only in the sense that it makes no difference what you personally like. That's where I see a flaw in your line of thinking - basing a design and your own marketing on what you personally like.
What you personally like is actually irrelevant. What your target audience likes, and what they need or expect to see is whom we design for. There's way too many ego sites out there made by artist who dream up what they like, and ignore who their audience is.
Same can be said for web designs reviewed by other creative types. I'm not saying things couldn't be better or improved on Ray's site, but I don't really care so much about impressing people in the trade. What I do care about is whether a small business would look at Rays site and feel confident he can execute a nice job for them. In my view, I think we've accomplished that. Consider that Ray had ZERO internet presence. His one page site is still better than 90% of the sign company sites I've seen.
Lastly, Dan - while I admire your desire to want to be actively involved in the building of your own site, and learn some programming, I honestly don't know why you would think that is a good use of your time (and this applies not only to you but to most who choose to build their own sites). There's a reason why I don't do my own taxes, perform my own surgeries, or fix my own car. Sure I can add, use and Xacto knife, or throw around a wrench. But outside of not knowing what I'm doing, my time is better spent performing tasks which I excel at, and paying professionals for the task which I don't.
Consider if you spent 25 hours on the design of your site. Your labor rate/value conservatively would be at $250/hr. That's $6250 in billable time, that could have paid for a better, more valuable site - that not only reflected you better - but also had the greater potential to bring in more business.
There's a extremely small amount of people with the expertise I would consider on the professional level, who also build web sites and run a sign company. The only person that comes to mind honestly is Joe Diaz. Outside of that, I have see a ton of attempts that fail miserably from design and SEO perspectives. But hey, who am I to judge - you want to learn Dreamweaver and PS and CSS, if thats where your heart lies, and the road you want to take your business down - go for it. Learning is great - but sometimes learning at the expense of your own business - eh, maybe not so much.
Thanks for the typo catch on Ray's header - fixed that.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Not bad for a quickie watered down version of an Antonelli site. Bet it was done on a mac too! hee-hee. ( just messin' w/ you Dan ... you did a nice job for Ray )
I just want to see his beautiful logo bigger. That big plain message on the top left shouldn't over power it like it does now.
Congrats Raymond, for having a website! Another step forward ... and that's pretty exciting. I still remember the day I created an "address" on the net. I went around telling everyone I was a dot commer now!
Very cool for you Raymond!
~ nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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ok. An impartial viewer here, but I am a "Sign Guy" and not a searcher.
When I goto Raymonds site, the text is overwhelming and "Sign Company" is not the impression that immediately hits me. "Design Studio" is what strikes me and I get the first impression that this may be a graphic design firm rather than sign company. If most people are like me, they don't want to read through all that text. I'm looking for signs and I want to see some eye candy. Maybe a background fill with various signs or something to keep me captivated before I give up and move onto another search for a sign company would possibly work a little better. I still go ahead and click on the gallery, but it takes too long to load and I eventually gave up and tried to reload the page and then it eventually came up. I like the rollover gallery setup.
Dan S.'s site immediately strikes me as a little more personal, less of the "professional or corporate" look. The fact that it's not sized correctly for my 1024x768 resolution and makes me scroll right a little bit, confirms that theory. His logo/sample picture makes me immediately notice the word "imagination" and strikes interest, which leads me to the bottom links where I chose to move forward through the site. I like to see samples but don't like the fact that I have to click on each image in order to load a new page.
Both sites could be changed a little bit in order to improve the viewing experience. Raymond could use more imagery and less text.
Dan could fine tune the layout a bit and use a easier gallery setup without sacrificing the look. He could even change his typestyle so that he could use actual searchable text instead of using bitmap images to reveal the print.
Dan Ant.'s site immediately strikes me as professional, corporate style. I think that's what his aim is and it looks great to me, while serving his purpose.
I think a little more budegt on Raymond's part would probably pay off in added leads, while a slight give in Dan's stubbornness would also lead to more leads.
I'm not a web guru and probably couldn't do as well as either of you two did! You're both also way more talented than I am so i'll be quiet now.
[ February 05, 2010, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Evans ]
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 911 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The only problem I have with that site is that it ain't mine.
If my site looked that good and was ranked at the top of google in my area I would be so happy I would have to sit on both hands to keep from waving at everybody.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
) so if they open a site for a sign guy and can't even read all the words on the guy's sign in the header of the site they will think; If he cant make his own sign readable what will he do with my sign.
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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