posted
Inappropriate and childish? Is warning the rest of us inappropriate and childish. I don't think so.
Fella comes into my shop, agrees to terms and times with me, drops down a small deposit. Starts calling me everyday to see if his design is ready. Combination of bad weather and his persistence gets me to stay inside and wrap up his files quicker than spoken. After leaving messages about the work being completed, he replies with email I took too much time, same day his deposit check bounces 'insufficient funds'.
Maybe I should keep my mouth shut to avoid being inappropriate or childish. But, I foolishly did not. Instead, sent him a letter regarding services agreed, money owing, legal actions next step. Seems I got his dander up and he's willing to come pay before my deadline.
If and when he does, I will proudly act inappropraite and childish by first refusing any future work from him or any other client who fraudulently gives me a bad check, and second posting that check on my studio wall for future clients viewing pleasure.
Because, I like being inappropriate and chidlish, not an honest and ethical businessman.
-------------------- Tony Segale Segale Fine Art & Gold Leaf Sign Co Lodi, CA www.tonysegale.com
""and he took that golden hair and made a sweater for baby bear" Posts: 216 | From: Lodi,CA,USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Here we go again. Hijacking a thread for a personal agenda. That topic needs to be put into the politics and religion category on here.
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
At first, I also thought that it was wrong for Larry to post his frustration with Chuck and LHF. I thought it was a personal matter that should have stayed in house.
But on the other hand, thanks to Larry and other Letterville Residents who have posted their dealings with LHF, I have become better informed of Chuck and his ways of dealing with Font Contributors and Customers alike.
As a possible future font contributor to LHF, I know have a keener insight of the business practices at LHF. And isn't that what these forums are for? Being made more aware and informed, instead of being lost and guessing.
I know about Larry, I know about Chuck. I've had dealings with Larry, but never with Chuck, aside from one email.
I've read all the posts on this forum and other forums. Some good, some not so good about Chuck and LHF.
Me personally, I love LHF! But if I every have to have business dealings with Chuck and LHF, I will be that much better in those dealings, thanks to all those who have posted their experiences on this subject.
Has Chuck every posted on this or any other site? Has he posted any response to the issues raised? If so, please direct me to those comments. To be fair, I need to read and understand Chucks view also.
-------------------- Robare M. Novou Milwaukee Sign Works Milwaukee Wisconsin USA Posts: 21 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA | Registered: Mar 2003
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I can't help but feel that telling someone in an open forum that what they posted was inappropriate and childish is very inappropriate and childish.... oh.... wait.......
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
that's one of the strange things, he does read these posts, don't think for a second that he doesn't, yet still chooses to not explain his version of the stories or clear things up. Some of the regulars here contribute to his font offerings (Arthur, Dan, Duncan). I'd be curious if they are getting too much success to complain or just nervous that this guy will drop them if they speak up.
Seems like this site would be a great alternate way to sell their fonts. How many people refuse to buy your fonts just because of this guys ego??
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
steve needs to add a "rant and vent" forum to this site-!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Ive been buying fonts from Chuck for several years now, and never had any kind of problem. I do know that he hates piracy, as do I being a clipart designer, and works hard to make his fonts hard to steal. Its a never ending battle with all the deadbeats on the internet and people making copies and giving them away or selling them for profit. I havent talked to Chuck in quite awhile, but just recently ordered a package of fonts from them. The designers that do work for him, including Larry, are top notch and put out some of the best stuff there is. Im really sorry to see this happen, and Id also hate to see this turn into a burning at the stake for LHF. I can safely say that LHF fonts have helped my business greatly, along with Sign DNA and The Fontrys. Im sorry to hear this happened Larry, but also question if this was the place to air it out. Just my opinion though, and I hope things get worked out for you.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Yes to John and all those who feel that Letterville isn't the place to air this out. Letterville is a place to post jokes, health issues, birthdays and promote one's meets, workshops, anniversary's but heavens no, not for business practices whether good or bad. Airing problems here isn't good behavior after all why would someone bring this up in their own hometown to persons like us who run a trouble free life and business.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
How many type styles does one need? Really?
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
"Airing problems here isn't good behavior"...maybe, maybe not.
Funny, didn't see that complaint in Henry Barker's (40+ replies)Topic: "Not really in the Letterhead Spirit"
But one good thing about the Bullboard, is ya can.
I was encouraged to participate at LHF, and now I'm deleted. Not much different than doing a job, and not getting paid for it. I feel like I've been robbed.
I like all the fonts I've purchased there, and some of the contributing artists are my friends. I hope they still are. Well, I'm done now. If anyone wants to discuss this topic with me further, we can do it in private.
I like the enthusiasm over here, and I think I'll check in more often...WITH the Letterhead spirit of course!
If you ever have a glass etching question, or gilding question, feel free to drop me a line.
Thanks for the replies!
Over and out.....Aho!
[ December 22, 2009, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Larry White ]
-------------------- Larry White Town of Machine www.walljewelry.com whitel@iname.com Posts: 36 | From: Machine | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Jack, You know like I know that a good sign artist can get by with just a few and can draw anything he wants if the need arises. Fonts and clipart are just time savers for a lot of us. I want to mention that I love the letterhead fonts and I appreciate all of Chuck's hard work. The gallery on the site is a great source of inspiration as well. One thing...I wish Chuck could invent some code to embed in those fonts to keep them from being used improperly by bad designers. If the design stinks.. Poof! The fonts disappear.
posted
Since my name was brought up I will comment... Please no one take it personally.
I like to judge folks on how they treat me personally. I know Chuck has a vendetta against piracy and reacts very strongly when he runs up against it. Although I may not always agree with his tactics I do support his cause.
From my personal experience Chuck and LHF have treated me more than fair and always paid promptly when they sell my fonts. I wish I could say the same for everyone I deal with.
Any time I hear of a grievance or argument I like to hear both sides before I make a comment. Even then I've learned that my comments or judgements often aren't very welcome and often not appreciated by either side.
In any case what we may read or hear - especially in the heat of a disagreement isn't how it is ultimately settled. I know it's true in my own personal life. We all have bad days from time to time and when I'm in the thick of a (perceived) crisis I often may not react to something or someone as I should. Sadly, those closest to me often take the brunt of my anger - even if I'm not even a little bit mad at them. They just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when I (wrongly) feel the need to vent. Thankfully those who are closest to me don't judge me by these unfortunate (and stupid - on my part) occurrences. I've had to apologize more in my life than most folks for more things than I'd ever like to admit - especially in public.
So often when someone posts about a wrong on a public forum lots of folks like to jump in and make judgement and comment without knowing all the facts.
On more than one occasion I have been 'fired' by a client and I've 'fired' a few clients myself over the years. While we may not see eye to eye and may even have not nice things to say about each other (at least until we cool down) the truth is neither (or both) of us are necessarily a bad people. To figure out who's the bad guy or who is at fault you would have to do a bunch of digging. The truth is we may not be suited to doing business with each other or we may simply have a personality conflict. It may not be a smart business move - but we are all human.
While Larry could well be right in this case, public flogging of Chuck on his part and a then whole bunch of other folks jumping on the bandwagon, digging up old grievances and stories to 'prove' their 'point' doesn't serve any good purpose in my view. Arguments which take place in the media often are not done with the intent of making things better.
If you like the fonts that LHF delivers please continue to support Chuck and the artists (myself included) that contribute to that site. If not - don't support them. I hope things change for the better in the future.
Merry Christmas all and Happy New Year too from Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Your a wise man Grampa, and it doesn't just come with age. Our Art is gift to us all and I am grateful anyway I can express it. Season greetings to all you wonderful Canadians. You are the crown of our country. Noel and not first or the last.
-------------------- Noel B. Weber Classic Design Studio 412 S. Sixth Boise, Idaho 82702 Posts: 1 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Sep 2006
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I can't help but wonder how each of us would hold up to the kind of scrutiny Chuck has been subjected to on this and similar threads - deserved or not. Heaven knows I've got my own foibles.
Its almost 5am. Time to go to work and pay some of Santa's bills.
******
Oh, I almost forgot to include an answer to Jack's question.
42,547
[ December 22, 2009, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Here it is 4AM, just got up to prepare myself for a new day. Last night I called Jack and discussed this post which he was unaware of and to urge him to post a reply. Jack is one of my hero's when it comes to someone I look up to. I have a lot of hero's and within each one is knowledge to supply me with a reason to stick around. I always thought that 25 to 30 Fonts were a maximum for any one's business and Jack honored me with the same feeling plus an explanation of why. I very rarely watch the news these days because of the fact I find that it is made up of commentators and their interpretation of the news is just for their own show. On the other hand game shows ask questions of general knowledge which tickles my grey matter so to speak and fills me with correct answers so that down the road in case someone asks a question I nay be able to join the conversation. I know that this post isn't something that I might find helpful because of my retirement but I do know that there are persons who no matter what the topic will become so distant from the original topic that in the end will wind up bringing a smile to my face Now don't get me wrong as I respect another persons belief as long as they keep it on the subject at hand and hopefully never have the same problem Larry White has had in which case they may change their reply to fit their mood which can show not so much as flexibility but their belief that their problem is entirely different, in which case it isn't. I believe that this forum is the place to express grievances as well as how-to's, birthdays, workshops and an assortment of other stuff related to your businesses. This way this forum works to its fullest on its professional ability to help each other from falling or failing and therefore is compliant with the rules of our quest, which is to run a trouble free operation. There are many instances in all businesses which relate to what we are all about and although some do not always see it our way, it does not mean any one of us is wrong.
That's all I have to say
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
All this discussion got me to thinkin of one of my favorite movies, "Open Range"...
"We got no quarrel with none of you folks. Boss of that website bushwhacked my friend and shot deragatory comments at him. Shotdown the letterhead spirit, too. And clubbed it so hard... It might not live. Tried to take his dignity. Not postin in here would mean we ain't gonna do nothing about it. You don't like free thinkers in this town. We don't much like being here. But a man's got a right to protect his property and his life. And we ain't letting no crazed owner or his words take either. We got no intention of harming bystanders."
-------------------- Tony Segale Segale Fine Art & Gold Leaf Sign Co Lodi, CA www.tonysegale.com
""and he took that golden hair and made a sweater for baby bear" Posts: 216 | From: Lodi,CA,USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I personally don't like posts like this. It has nothing to do with Letterheads, or the reason this Forum exists. Chuck may not be my biggest fan, but I don't like to see Letterville used in this manner. None of us are perfect. Letterville was never intended to be a "whipping post." Please keep that in mind when making future posts.
There are different sides involved here. We have the owner of a business with a terriffic product for sale. Then there are the talanted artists that design and sell their fonts. I'm real proud that all of them consider themselves Letterheads. The very mention of that name suggests quality and something a step above average. I hope all involved can work out their differences, so that all the rest of us can purchase the product for years to come.
This next part isn't as easy to write about. It's a topic that we have struggled with for years. Nobody wants to hear about it, and yes, it is embaressing. It's time for The Money Talk. There is a connection between this Topic and what we are about to discuss.
We like to call Letterville "The Letterhead Meet That Never Stops." For over 15 years, it has been here 24/7/365. There are no business hours. We are always available to answer questions, promote meets, and do our little part to make sure this wonderful thing called Letterheads is available for future Letterheads. It's been a real honor. Over the years, we have been able to document 170 something live meets around World, gather up some great Step By Steps, and do whatever we can to try and simulate a live Letterhead Meet.
Along the way, with all your help, we came up with a live Chat and even the famous HeadCam. Long before YouTube and all the fancy chat tools available today, there was live video from Letterhead and PinHead Meets Around The World. In the process, we grew from 22 sign shops to over 10,000 shops. All on a website built with HTML For Dummies and a dream! People come and go, but I still believe this Forum continues to be the most popular of it's kind. Letterville has been our fulltime income for over 12 years. Thanks to Residents and Merchants, we were able to raise our Family after I became disabled.
It's not easy. Our main income used to be Merchants. With the traffic Letterville gets each day, there is no more economical way to reach so many. Many of us are the people that still use paint and brushes, yet Letterville today has no paint or brush manufacturer. It's amusing since vinyl and transfer tape companys have the impression we are all old paint dinasaurs that don't use their products. Go figure. To be honest, we are also to blame for much of this. Our marketing skills suck.
Since Day One, we have had a big problem with people and companies, who profit off their products, use this Forum to post links and use the popularity of this website to do some free advertising. Some claim it is just information and they have the right to post in public forums, some claim they want to test the waters before risking a whooping 500 bucks a year in advertising. I truly believe there are others that are just "helping out a friend." Some will call them savvy Marketers. I call them Freeloaders.
We all understand the frustration at seeing our designs, fonts or hard work stolen by others. Everytime it happens, the creator is denied income that is badly needed to survive and grow their business. When this free enterprise thing is working well, we make a bit of money by helping others make money. Too often, we see everyone else making a buck but Letterville. It can become downright annoying when times are really tough.
When I see a post like this, I see a company that has publically stated they have no respect for this website, getting more free publicity. It may not be positive, but we all know there is no such thing as bad publicity. It's frustrating we have failed so miserably to put Letterheads and those that market to us together. Everytime I see a link to a non Merchant, I can just see those who have supported this website so many years toss up their hands.
Just another way of looking at things.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Makes sense to me, Steve. I apologize for my contributions to the thread (but not for my opinions of LHF.)
quote:Originally posted by Steve Shortreed: Everytime I see a link to a non Merchant, I can just see those who have supported this website so many years toss up their hands.
I've thought the same thing. Especially when someone suggests the Merchant right off, and then 5 more people say but... but.... THIS other random internet place is cheaper.
[ December 22, 2009, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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There are many that vent their frustrations here. I try not to get involved with something that has nothing to do with me. I make my own choices and decisions and live by those - be they right or wrong. Sometimes I am ill informed and thus made a poor judgement.
I think that Letterville and it's members is more like a "distant family". Yes !!! the primary subject is Signs. But at some point in time, the personality of the authors starts to shine through and we become "friends" rather than just authors. I think herein MAY lie the problem. People can ( and probably do) take liberty by venting their frustrations / anger / disappointment to their "friends", forgetting that there are others on the sidelines. Possibly not a good impression to someone that has just picked up their first "Signcraft" magazine, seen the Letterville ad and taken the time to www. it.
One thing that that I can make judgement on is this (now remember... this is MY opinion) ...
A parent stands on the side, listening to their two children argue over whatever. The discussion goes back and forward and the parent is forced to stand on the sidelines, saying nothing, not supporting one nor the other - that could be seen as favortism.
There does however come a point in time when the parent - for the sake of civilty - needs to call a "halt" and send them on their separate ways - determining that the argument is going nowhere and nothing good is really going to become of it.
As a parent - sometimes decisions need to be made - sometimes contrary and unpopular to those involved.
Parents are just bloodline Moderators.
Likewise, as a Moderator, decisions need to be made - sometimes contrary and unpopular to those involved.
No offence intended, but I would be more than comfortable for posts (certainly not this post specifically) to be removed that as the Host to a worldwide community, did not reflect the intention and spirit of the site.
Think not only of those who post here... but also those who don't.
Cheers - Gregg
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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posted
geez, I too would like to live in a world where problems are erased before they happen but unfortunately that isn't possible in the real world. It seems that some want only to hear of good experiences and never be warned of bad experiences, wow!! I guess in todays world all of which happens to some which are not politically correct to others and therefore should be erased, deleted, removed. Is this why signmakers need a spell check on their computer. I found this post wasn't about arguing or scrutiny but rather a bad experience from an artist in our community and if good experiences go without as many reply's does this make those who typed the post feel any better. One who shows concern whether in agreement or disagreement is complementary without directional violence attached to their reply. To put this in simple terms, getting with the program has more then one answer as we are all here to learn from another persons experience, are we not?
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I hesitated to even post when this thread started, as it might look like I had some axe to grind against my perceived competition.
Heck, I don't even know Chuck. Never bought a Letterhead font. I know some who have, and they were happy about it. I know some who have, and they weren't happy about it. Never discussed it with them either way except on technical or artistic grounds, to gauge my own work against their expectations and opinions.
I don't like the idea of piracy, but I also never give it much thought. I give away so many freebies, it doesn't matter. The freebies promote me, and probably too does the piracy.
My only reason for posting was to offer some encouragement to anyone who wants to sell their own fonts. A few have asked me to sell them on their behalf, but my position on that is simple.
I don't want to make money off your hard work. Their are already people out their who will gladly do that for you!!! Only they will actually do a very good job for you while they're at it. Much better than I can ever do.
And yes, I'm well aware that everything posted here will be read by people whose names we will probably never know and whose faces we will probably never see.
In other words ... if you say something about someone, it will get back to them.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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And sometimes, maybe it should. There are people who become so wrapped up in their own perception of reality that they don't know the overall effects of their decisions. And since this individual does not care to tell HIS side, the perception becomes one-sided, at best.
As for whether this topic is appropriate, I think Joey said it best, in his own unique way.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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