posted
A couple of weeks ago I was contacted by a client to design a logo and extensive theme work for a new business they were starting. It was an exciting project. We discussed it at length and then they gave me a 50% deposit to start work on the design portion of the project.
I started design with the logo first, following with preliminaries on the theme work. I received a reply via email they liked the logo but perhaps wanted to see another version to make sure they were OK with it. I was mildly mystified but complied. They liked the second one as well but requested a few changes specifically in the font. I complied with two slightly different versions. This went on for some time with no real dislikes or no''s - just more requests. I did my best to satisfy. They then asked me to stop work on the logo but continue on the other parts until they had time to think the logo through. Sometimes it takes a while to get these things right.
Then I got an email with a different logo from his sister. She's a designer. They didn't like the design she had given them. They just thought I might like the input. At this point I was somewhat confused.
I met with my client two days ago (at her request) and we went over the designs for the theme work. That went OK.
Then she dropped the bombshell...
She asked me to type a URL into my computer and I did...
It was for a logo design site. She had entered a contest with a prize of $250 for the winning logo design. There were a few dozen logos so far - some not bad and some pretty good. She showed me the comments she had posted, with each designer being requested to change fonts, alter and tweak their designs extensively. I could instantly see a pattern developing. Bells went off in my head.
After she left I took a closer look at the logo design site. Of the few designers who's profiles I looked at all had entered a number of contests - some a LOT! Their odds of winning were less than 10% at best, some a lot lower. Some had entered hundreds of contests and only won with a few designs.
I have a goodly design deposit on the project... which I feel I am earning fairly. Once the online logo contest runs its course I suspect I will either be asked to tweak a logo design done by someone else or perhaps build a logo based on elements of the designs she likes. They may come back to my original designs as she says she still likes them a lot. Who knows?
It's just a very awkward place to be. I've let it sit a few days without comment to let my ego take a chill... I've taken LOTS of deep breaths and counted to 1000. It will sort itself out in the end I'm sure.
I'm just a little mystified at my client's approach after paying me a lot of money to do the design... in 41 years I've never run into this before.
-grampa dan
[ November 18, 2009, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I ran into a somewhat similar situation a few years ago. A guy paid me $250 to design a logo for the town he lived in. I found out later he had entered it in a contest that the town was having for a new town logo.
The design I did came in 3rd place....sorta. The powers that be chose two other designs and had the respective designers to work together to merge their designs into a single design. The winners had to split the $100 prize money 50/50. My client got a pat on the back and a mention in the local paper.
posted
Some people can never seem to make up their mind, and the more choices they are given, the more confused they get. I don't understand how those who enter these design contests can spend very much time coming up with ideas and then doing revisions for only $250 ! I have never done any "spec" work and don't plan to start, though I guess with the economic situation some folks feel they need to do that. I hope everything works out good for you, but it seems like this customer may require a P.I.T.A. fee added in somewhere.....
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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It seems the less knowledge some people have the more opinionated they are. I'm wondering why the sister didn't design the logo in the first place.
A wise client hires the right professional and lets them do their job. Client art direction is like telling your doctor how to diagnose your ailment. Some still try though.
posted
The best kept secret in the world is to hire a sign painter to make up a sketch for a sign and have it as a logo or basis for a logo. A simple sketch and then you see it all over the place after getting the measely sign painted and paid for. It happens, but honestly, it only happens rarely.
I did a window for a new car dealer. He kinda forgot to tell me he was going to use my design work as a back drop for pictures of his cars for the internet, newsprint ads and even his main home page of his website.
I complained that I was only selling him the rights to the sign and not all of the intellectual property rights. He squirmed, but said he owned the sign and could use it anyway he wanted. I went to an intellectual propery lawyer and he sent the guy a demand letter. The client had always been a jerk with me over price and paying me, so I felt if I never saw the guy again, no biggie. The dealer calls me up and wags his tongue at me for ten minutes on the phone and finally agreed to pay me an additional $750. I cashed his check and paid the lawyer his $200 fee. Then Chrysler went belly up. The dealer lost his Chrysler franchaise and the guy had the guts to call me up asking for another window, advertising the fact that he was now in the ussed car business. I told him I needed the check upfront and raised my price to a grand. He moaned and complained, but when I showed up, he handed me the checkaroo. He lasted another few months, before shutting down the place all together. Karma. Sign karma...the worst kind for using one of my designs the wrong way. Oh well. As I said, it does not happen often.
Need a logo? Call a sign guy and let him do all of the creative....not.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I feel your pain.. and i will watch with eyes wide open to learn how you handle it... already took note of the counting to 1000... I only counted to 3 & threw a potential client out of the shop this morning for not being capable of saying what she wanted... but managing to say "hang up the phone" instead... to which I said no, I needed to finish my call, & I guessed I couldn't help her if she couldn't wait...
Then my day ended with a paranoid freak who thought my paper print of her designers file looked like the colors were off... I said my $40,000.00 printer usually produces acceptable prints for all my other clients, but my $80 HP desktop printer was just for sketching cut lines onto, or post spacing... not for final color correction tweaks...
...she just could not get past that sheet of paper & it completely destroyed any rapore we had built, or trust I might have earned... she packed up her things & split, saying her designer would have to come down and work with me...
posted
Dan, what you have on your hands is what I refer to as a hollow man (or woman, in this case). By hollow I mean their is nothing inside; they have no sense of who they are, and because of that, no standard on which to judge anything. A hollow man is a vacuum, filled with whatever opinions, thoughts, criticisms, or suggestions come along, all merging into a kind of amorphous sludge.
You've all seen them - they are the client who can't decide on anything, is constantly worried and fretful, who needs approval from everyone around them on every detail. They start out great, all enthusiastic and complimentary, saying things like "You're the expert, you tell me" - then come back with seemingly minor changes, like "My sister doesn't like this shade of blue", "My wife thinks the lettering should be such and such", "I showed this to my partner (or barber, plumber, the Mexican who mows the lawn, a homeless guy at the bus station, etc.) and they think..."
Hollow people are the worst kind of PITA, because the vacuum is never filled. They can't make up their mind because they literally don't have one; their whole personality consists of other people's thoughts, opinions, comments, and criticisms.
Because hollow people have no standards, is why we need to stick to OUR standards. To hollow people, endless revisions are the only way they have of measuring progress towards a goal, and the goal is never really clear. The only way to handle this is to make it absolutely clear that they are required to pay for your time - that their dithering will cost them. Eventually they run short of time and money, and you may finally finish a project - but count on being exhausted and frustrated, and on them never really being satisfied.
You've only had one of these in 41 years? Lucky you. I've had a few, and the trick is to just survive them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cam and Joe are referring to one side of Dan's problem, one most of us are familiar with, the customer who endlessly can't decide.
But don't lose sight of the bigger issue surfacing here, the proliferation of online logo design competitions.
If you're not familiar with these, you should be. You will see that for the potential of one designer receiving $400 or so, dozens of designers will submit hundreds of designs. They are usually a little formulaic, but overall, they're not that bad.
The only way they can possibly make sense is if the remuneration for producing a hundred designs is worth four or five hundred dollars, and the only way that can be true is if $500 a month is a satisfactory wage, or these designers can produce an acceptable logo in a minute or two.
It just may be the first round of outsourcing overseas has hit our industry where we least expected it, at the design level.
Once a process is entirely digital and the client interface is minimal, it can be done anywhere. Why pay $50 to $200 an hour to produce it in the U.S. (or Canada, Australia or Europe)?
When I was reviewing a marketing program to use Goggle Adwords with a company who specializes in placement, the most common relevant search term entered locally was for "logo design". There were over 5000 entries for logo design in one month, compared to 150 for "signs".
The marketing rep asked why I don't focus more on that. While I perhaps should, the long term flaw in that business plan is the current cost of logos online is down to less than $500 and the logo competitions are providing hundreds of designs for that price.
It has become the design equivalent of $2/SF banners and with no distribution issues, it will only get worse.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Dan--my dad used to always tell a story from his Bodyman days of the time when a customer came back to complain about a particular dent repair/\paintjob he had done...
Now dad always said he worked to satisfy himself before the customer, so he took it seriously when this fella drove up with his 2 week old paintjob to complain.
He said, "I'm not happy. There's still a dent down low in the door there." He then gestured to the general area of the drivers side.
Dad hunkered down and closed one eye. "Where?"
"Well, right in there." Again with the vague gesture.
Dad loked again, tilting his head, (I imagine) from side to side to catch the light. "Where?"
With a little exasperation the fella waveringly pointed again and said, "In there... somewhere! I can't see it, but I was showing it off over at town and they said there was a dent in there, so you need to find it and fix it!"
At which point, dad laughed and said, "Fella, I can't fix 'em if I can't see 'em."
posted
Take what they owe you and walk. You'll end up doing something with so many compromises that you'll wish you hadn't done it. Wish them well and move on.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I love Cam's description. Yep we've all had them.
If you are being paid well to do the work for them then I'd carry on.
Not everyone is going to like everything that we do. It's a fact of life. I'd guess one of two things are happening here. Either she really wants you to do her theme work, but isn't happy with your logo design and is too chicken to out and out say it, so she is looking for alternatives, or she really does fit Cam's description. Either way, it shouldn't affect your ego.
Did you ask her why she was looking elsewhere if she liked your design? If so what was her reply?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I agree with Paul's point. As a design studio, logo development is one of the main services I try to focus on.
In additions to logo "competitions," a quick google search for "logo design" reveals that there are plenty of online companies advertising logos for as low as $49.
In the "get it as cheap as I can" mentality of many shoppers now-a-days, it's getting tougher to convince potential clients of the benefits of hiring a professional.
On a related side note the No!SPEC website is a really great resource on the evils of spec work:
quote:Did you ask her why she was looking elsewhere if she liked your design? If so what was her reply?
Because people have so many choices now,, they cannot be secure in their final selection. Instead of creating freedom of choices they are instead unable to choose.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Set a limit on revisions and then when they start to exceed the limit remind them that any further revisions will be charged an additional fee (which will be quite high) and watch them accept the latest design happily!
Money talks louder than re-designs/revisions.
You may remind them that your fee for design is NOT unlimited.
Just my 2 cents.
Good Luck with this one.
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Dan, if it is truly getting to your ego.......bail! You are easily one of the most passionate people in regards to what you doon the entire BB. That passion is in part driven by ego. DO NOT allow someone who just "doesn't get it" to douse that flame.
You say you have never run into a situation like this before. Take it from someone who has.....bail! This client has their head stuck so far up their butt, no amount of time will sort things out. I would hate to see you suffer any long term damage as a result of this. I've spent many a month under the porch licking my wounds from dealing with people like this. It's just not worth it.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Lay low, Go hunting or fishing, grab a mocha, and by the way watch out for David, he's a spy. Mow the lawn, trim hedges. Walk or run a maraththon do the Iditarod, Milk the cows, take a nap. Go to Disneyland, again and again. Watch football. Eat a steak and fly a kite.
There...is it all better?
Oh, and drop kick a baboon...
Jack
[ November 20, 2009, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Yep we've all had them.
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