It wasn't meant that way and pardon the exaggeration. I think you understand my point however, that very few people in the state are doing decent work (and not just our state). I think you might agree that they are in a pretty big minority. You drive down the same highways I do- and really - out of 50 trucks you see, how many are noteworthy? Not many. Even in the state known as being a mecca for truck lettering.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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As a comparison, there are many fine sign artists in the state of Texas, but they are in a minority. Many I know from my own travels, but mostly from seeing their work in the various journals.
It doesn't mean that each area doesn't have capable folks doing good work - they just don't have the exposure of others.
But what Dan is saying is true - the really outstanding designers usually will only make up about 10% or less of the total number of sign folks in any area.
Last week I was in Tampa and St. Petersburg and saw lots of signs, but only a small number really caught my eye as being well designed. The rest were functional but not outstanding.
And it's not just that people want cheap signs because even less expensive signs can be well designed and attractive without having gold leaf and hand carving. The plain old For Sale sign can be attractive and it doesn't cost a penny more - just some thought in the layout process.
Edited to add: At the beginning of my workshops I trade business cards with the students. It is a sneaky way of seeing the design capabilities of those attending. It is amazing how few even have brought business cards or have one, and then how poorly they represent the people who are supposed to be knowledgeable about what is attractive and effective. The business card doesn't cost less because it is poorly designed.
[ September 29, 2009, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I haven't read through the responses so forgive me if I'm repeating another's thoughts.
What keeps ringing in my head are Dan's words.
#1. In a nutshell... if you chose to be like everyone else, you'll be charging like everyone else. Create a niche and you can charge what you like.
That said, when I was in school, I applied to graphic design houses vs. sign shops for working practicum. One student in my class was also a 'graphic designer' that charged very big bucks and got it.
In order to charge what they do, it helped to educate myself inside the graphic design world. The way the stuff is presented, how they charge, why they charge what they do... it's all educating.
When I had my storefront, I indeed charged graphic designer prices coming out of a 'sign shop.' Because I built up the education to know I could and how to do it. My logos brought up to $2500. Each. Because I asked for it the right way. Not everyone will buy. But those that will, get it.
My last logo I charged $2k for and I mainly used their own artwork, but heavily revamped it. I sold a total image for all their apps, not just a logo.
I chose the title Graphic Impact so it didn't read the word signs anywhere.
A different mentality is required that you indeed CAN charge for. You just have to approach things differently. Get the goods from a graphic design house and find out for yourself how they're getting paid well for what they do. Then, educate your customers the same way.
As to why sign shops charge what they do, refer to #1.
Do your stuff the best, and you can name your price.
I'm currently pushing out firetruck graphics at good prices. I can do this with no effort. Think what I could do if I MADE the effort. Which I'm purposely not doing because I'm putting my time into building other ventures.
posted
After reading Raymond's last post, I'd also like to add...
Setting up graphic design meant to be read on paper is a much different ballgame than creating signs. I've seen lots of sign designers that are poor typesetters, and visa versa.
Having training in both areas (when I went back to school) really helped me drastically improve my work and ask for the prices I did.
"Ninety percent of selling is being credible in the eyes of the client (i.e. - a comfortable command of knowledge and attitude)."
This statement couldn't be more true. Once I became comfortable in my new role as a designer rather than a sign jockey, I swallowed hard and started asking for the bigger prices. Once I convinced myself I deserved it, it was easier to sell it.
[ September 29, 2009, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
It wasn't meant that way and pardon the exaggeration. I think you understand my point however, that very few people in the state are doing decent work (and not just our state). I think you might agree that they are in a pretty big minority. You drive down the same highways I do- and really - out of 50 trucks you see, how many are noteworthy? Not many. Even in the state known as being a mecca for truck lettering.
Sorry if that was taken the wrong the way -
I originally said I knew it's not what you meant, I'm just tired of people thinking the same 5 or so guys are the only ones with talent in NJ.
As for seeing nice truck lettering, that was one of my original points. Everyone keeps saying step up to the plate and provide high quality work that peel and stick shops can't provide. Big rig owners are known to be proud of their trucks, if you can't draw them away from the vinyl slappers, it somewhat proves my point that it comes down to money, not quality.
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 397 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: As for seeing nice truck lettering, that was one of my original points. Everyone keeps saying step up to the plate and provide high quality work that peel and stick shops can't provide. Big rig owners are known to be proud of their trucks, if you can't draw them away from the vinyl slappers,
Are you saying that "peel and stick" shops and "vinyl slappers" are a group of folks who have no talent and are not worthy of lettering big rigs?
If so, all I can say is, I have seen as many crappy jobs "slopped" on trucks with paint as I have "slapped" on with vinyl.
Please give it a break with putting down vinyl shops. There are as many crappy painters as there are crappy vinyl guys.
If I owned a big rig I would be wanting vinyl for my graphics and lettering. Easier to remove than paint when I trade up. No ugly, brush strokes that fade differently depending on the colour, and thickness after a couple of years.
Using a brush does not immediately elevate a person to a superior status. It just means they can use a brush..that is it...nothing more.
Most shops today use vinyl..many use either paint or vinyl or a combo of both..and some use only paint.
It is the design process that sets one shop above the others, not the medium.
In a recent post Rene and Pierre collaborated on the lettering for Rene's "retro truck"..It looks excellent and for the job it needed traditional lettering methods to look authentic.
But on a modern big rig it is not needed unless the owner want's it.
I also wonder how many "painters" now use a computer and a plotter to produce their pounce patterns? If they use a computer to do that does that still make them better than "peel and stick" guys?
OK..off the soapbox..next up??
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
It is going to take years of change and education of customers what is a good or a bad sign , everyone has different needs and wants. You can be sign painter or a sticker guy if you aint got layout skills your signs are going to look ****.
We are all looking for a bargain every industry is the same priceshoppers etc etc with the global economy the way it is you do what you gotta do.
-------------------- Mark Stokes Mark Stokes Signs Mount Barker South Australia Posts: 388 | From: Mount Barker | Registered: Jan 2005
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I have to agree with Dave Grundy - this isn't a paint vs. vinyl thing, and blaming computers is as pointless as blaming the auto industry for the decline in carriage making. The debate here isn't about how we produce our services, it's how we find a way to be compensated in proportion to their value to our customers.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Design is the difference - it has nothing to do with materials or software.
In response to Donna's post about the difference between signs and printed materials - I agree that they are different fields, but design principles remain the same, whatever the media.
Positive and negative space, contrast, weight, and color. Basics that do not change. Darkest dark against the lightest light (weight or color) draws the viewers eye to the priority element.
[ September 30, 2009, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Are you saying that "peel and stick" shops and "vinyl slappers" are a group of folks who have no talent and are not worthy of lettering big rigs?
Of course I'm not saying all, but there are a good percentage in my area that can't design to save their souls. Whatever the computer spits out is what you get from them. I can't tell you how many times I've seen out of shape letters from using distortions that the designer never bothered to clean up.
BTW, I even call myself a Vinyl Slapper in days I'm not painting.
If so, all I can say is, I have seen as many crappy jobs "slopped" on trucks with paint as I have "slapped" on with vinyl.
Please give it a break with putting down vinyl shops. There are as many crappy painters as there are crappy vinyl guys.
With the percentage of people who only do vinyl to the people who do paint, I find this impossible to believe.
I will agree, a poorly laid out painted job is as bad or worse than a poorly done vinyl job
If I owned a big rig I would be wanting vinyl for my graphics and lettering. Easier to remove than paint when I trade up. No ugly, brush strokes that fade differently depending on the color, and thickness after a couple of years.
So vinyl that shrinks, peels and cracks looks better? Let alone the poorly laid out design that leaves lines where one color overlaps another. I use a premium 9 year vinyl, and my paintwork outlasts vinyl.
It is the design process that sets one shop above the others, not the medium.
This was my point, you don't see the quality of design work going downhill with the advent of computer generated work? If not you must be living in a magical land of lettering. Almost every sign person I talk to who has been in this business since BC (before computers) says the same thing.
I also wonder how many "painters" now use a computer and a plotter to produce their pounce patterns? If they use a computer to do that does that still make them better than "peel and stick" guys?
You missed the point, I'm talking about the majority of stuff I see that is poorly designed, not the media. Unfortunately it is mostly coming from vinyl shops.
I use the computer for almost everything I do. Masks make for a cleaner and faster execution of the job. I also incorporate a lot of vinyl in my work. BUT, I just don't type out words, pick a font and call it a day. If I use a distortion tool, I edit the letters to put them back into shape, I design my own fonts, I hand draw a lot of my layouts, scan and clean up. In other words, I put design into it.
When I complain about vinyl, it's not about shops like the people who visit here, these people do put the effort into actually designing. If they weren't I'm sure they wouldn't be here sharing what they know and learning from others.
I'm complaining about the shops that don't put in the effort to learn how to do proper layouts and in my area, they are the majority and they are strictly vinyl.
[ September 30, 2009, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: David Thompson ]
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 397 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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8. This would be a non-topic if the recession did not happen. Or if the home sign business had discipline/organization.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The truth is, each and every one of us gets to set our own prices. There are those that charge far more than electricians or plumbers and have no issue in getting those prices.
I am a firm believer that marketing and business skills are the most important in this business as far as financial matters are concerned. Someone with those traits will be far more successful than the incredible designer/ crafstman without. The ones that will ultimately rise to the top are those who possess both sets of skills.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle, with decent artistic talent and marketing skills, I fall short on the business end and I know that that is the deciding factor on how profitable my business is. At the same time there are those with far more talent than I who are really struggling and those with far less artistic skills that are doing very well.
Yes, the recession has dealt a blow to almost everyone, but those with the marketing and business skills will have found a way to turn that to their advantage and make it work for them.
Unfortunately there are those that despite their skills lack the confidence and constantly procrastinate and self sabotage. It's sad to see them struggle, but ultimately they are the only ones who can rectify that.
In the end we are who we are, for those who are struggling on the business end, perhaps it would be prudent to focus on that aspect in down times.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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A brilliant example of this debate came to me in reading the first few posts.
A regional manager for a high-end tractor dealership was assigned to our local store, not more than 1000 feet from my shop.
In the past, the shop would call me up for projects and I would just "DO THEM".
Now, the manager wants to re-letter their fleet of (6)service trucks. He wants them to look like the trucks from the last location he was at. He gives me the pictures etc, I develop an estimate and send him the proposal.
He calls me back, on a Friday afternoon, no less, and "informs" me that I "need to do something about this price. It is more than double he had the trucks done for at his last location." He goes on to state that if I want his work, I need to "fix something."
Hmmm,,,after reviewing the pricing very carefully, knowing full well that he was going to get other bids, we adjusted the profit margin percentage to a point where we were making a decent profit and giving him a good value for the work he was asking to have done. Somehow it wasn't acceptable for him.
I reminded him that we were using a premium product (3M Comply v3 with 8518 laminate) and we could give him a 5% quantity discount and that was it. I also asked him to make sure he was comparing "apples to apples."
His comment was, "I don't care if it is apples to apples. I need to be within a certain price point. And you're not it."
My quote included stripping and re-lettering all the trucks on a weekend so that HIS BUSINESS WASN'T LOOSING TIME & MONEY having his trucks down during the work week-at no extra charge.
Yep. Try finding that somewhere else, where the sign company is concerned about you running YOUR business. That's how I operate. I know it is difficult to be without the piece of equipment that keeps your income coming in, so I offer that for my clients. Maybe that's why I am higher...I actually understand the running of a business, vs slapping stuff on and getting paid.
I left the project go for about a week & half and sent a followup email. He called me back last Friday, sweet as honey, asking me what we can do on the price. I honestly replied that I can't go any lower and to figure in lost time shuttling vehicles into town or wherever to get them lettered....(2) guys at x hours times x dollars for 6 trucks over x period of days.
He then gave me the name of the other company that had lettered the trucks previously. I spoke with the designer and found out that AMAZINGLY, they were not using 3M with w laminate, but a "house brand" of vinyl with a spray on "laminate". So I checked out pricing on this material and the "laminate". Now I see why I am higher.
The largest portion of "cost" on my end was running a gradient stripe along the length of the box of the truck. Well, I am now waiting on a price from the other company to use that material. I will have them run the stripe and ship it to me and I will install it, since the client has no problem with mix & match vinyl on the trucks.
So instead of loosing the entire job, because I am higher, hopefully I will find a compromise to get this job in and done and still make some $$ doing it.
Is this copping out? Nope. Client will be happy they got a lower price point and kept everything local and quick. I will be happy to have $$ coming in in a typically slow time of year. And I won't be responsible for the stripe if it does peel etc. and can prove my point even further!
So holding my ground on the price really proved in this instance to be the right decision, even though it meant contemplating the idea of maybe not being to be able to make a mortgage payment in full on my shop for the first time.
Don't know if this helped or made matters worse. BTW, last week I was ready to close up shop, let the bank take my building and go waitress somewhere. The ups and downs of our lovely trade!
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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I think it is the old "art class" mentality.
Big deal if you can draw; can you throw a spiral?
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Nikki, Brings something to mind. That is...how her customer attempts to run her business for her. Huh? Is this happening other places? Do clients see you as their dependant?
[ September 30, 2009, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Guess, I'm missing your point, Jack. I lowered my price by less than $150 on $3600 in lettering plus the additional T&M labor for removal for a quantity discount, which I think is pretty standard in the industry.
EVERYONE haggles on an item that is more than one and if buying part of the project from another vendor in order to get a $3000 job is bad, then I guess I am missing the boat.
Since I have kids, I don't get the nice 9-5 day. I choose to work some nights and weekends as a trade-off. So we just schedule work to follow our lifestyle. $3000 for a weekend...yep, I'll trade!
And, yes, local builders, electricians and plumbers are being asked to reconsider their prices or find other solutions in order to get the work done. I have friends and family in all the above trades and their complaints are the same as ours. Except sometimes worse when a non-union shop is bidding against a union shop.So I don't see it as having someone else run my business.
As far as being the "dependant"...not sure what you mean there, but I have clients that won't say BOO! unless I tell them to. They come to me for everything; sign work, marketing, consulting etc.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Also, just got a call from a client, that commented that his wife was "playing with the logo on the computer" so she could send it to me to use.
Oh yeah...skilled talent.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Jack, I don't see it as the customer trying to run her business. The way she describes the situation, he's trying to run his.
The other shop trained him on what to expect.
It looks to me that the other shop found a way to produce a job at a lower cost while still maintaining a specific profit margin. There's nothing wrong with that.
The good that comes out of this is that Nikki has learned something new that she can apply to her own business and become more competitive without sacrificing profit. This will serve her well on future projects if she will apply the lessons learned properly.
posted
If we go on strike. The same thing that happened with the writers strike will happen. Reality shows. Low cost, no need for writers and the quality of programing suffers. Then Netflix will pick up the slack when people dont want 120 channels with nothing on. Then somebody will figure out how to undercut netflix. Que Sera Sera
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Nikki, no harm intended. Glenn, I like your points. I have actually seen A-holes attempt to school me in the past. But, still being harangued by a client never the less casts extra negative energy toward the project.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Maybe my post came across oddly, too. The manager of the location is, to be nice, a chauv, and I like the rest of the staff and want to keep my work there. In 6 months when he's gone, it is back to the staff to make decisions again.
That is probably the biggest challenge for me too! School the "pusher" that I won't be bent; I'll throw a bone here and there...
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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I haven't read every single answer, but of the one's I did read, only George came close to what I think is the truth. This trade went to the dogs when some brainlees committee decided to eliminate it from the apprenticeship program. WHY?? It has always blown my mind that people just sort of "get into signmaking". While that may work for some, for too many it does not. You don't get paid like the other skilled trades, because officially it isn't a skilled trade. Simple as that. Those with the power and connections should create an official three year apprenticeship, and things can only get better.
If we could make a list of "skilled trades", which of those DO NOT have some sort of certification or accreditation to their profession?
Even interior designers are certified...graphic designers have the design guild that they have the "option" to belong to. I really don't think being a "member" of ISA or SGIA counts...as long as you pay your $$ you are a "member".
The only "certifications" we have in our industry are the so-called vinyl certifications put on by the manufacturer of each product or in two cases, the distributor of those products.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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