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I do not know the answer or why except computers did this to us
remembers going to school for signs, took a tour through the biggest sign company in Minnesota, and they said see these ppl here doing the billboard pictures and such, it took those ppl 12 years to get there working for us and they now start at $20 to $25 per hour depending on talent etc.. sure thought yeaaa after I stay and learn to be best I can maybe someday remembers the automatic door opener ..I'm a sign painter and they look at my work wow come right in I've offen said sign ppl need to organize and be tested on advertising know how to become a sign shop , now it's cash talks talent walks
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"I do not know the answer..." Neither do I, there may be no answer, in this life anyway. But then again there may BE an answer. Some time back there was a comment made that stirred up a little commotion, it was something along the lines of "I'm surprised by the amount of intelligence among sign people." I don't remember how the thread went, but I was thinking about the statement recently, and...
I agree completely! Not because I expect sign people to be dummies, and am surprised they're not, no, it's because I would expect them to be average, and they're above average.
The problem isn't in making a guild, you can start that right now. The problems are coming to consensus about content, and as I said, keeping the thing from going the wrong way. Did you ever wonder about my tag line below? What was Benjamin Franklin getting at? He was pointing out the need for a REPUBLIC. A republic has founding documents.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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When I first read the headline of this thread, my response was exactly word for word what Bruce wrote.
IMHO, he's exactly right.
For the record, I have a reputation for having the highest prices in town.
And according to two of my local competitors, my shop is the only one that's busy.
I believe in market forces. I disagree with JoeC. that we need some sort of regulatory body for the purpose of protectionism resulting in artificially higher prices to satisfy our romanticized idea of fairness.
I have no problem with a regulatory body for the purpose of safety. No one wants to see a sign fall over because some idiot thought that a 12" deep footing was sufficient for a 12' tall, 200lb., 50 sqft sign. But when we ask for a body of bureaucrats to regulate what we can and can't do for the sake of inflating wages, thats just suicidal. Instead of lifting us up, it simply brings us down to lowest common denominator promoting mediocrity instead of exceptionalism.
Are we really the lowest paid skill trade? I don't think so. I know I'm not. I charge the same rates as the local plumbers and electricians in my area without any problem. Nevertheless, to me it really doesn't matter if we are or not. We chose this as our profession. If we don't like what we're paid, who's fault is that?
If you want to be paid more, it is your responsibility to convince the client that you are worth more.
You've gone off the cliff if you think my post was anything but levity.
I'll leave it to you folks to tell us more of how the country is going down the tube.
I happen to bleieve our current troubles will soon be in the rear view mirrow and well be doing better than ever, but ther will always be problems for us to face up to. And there will always be dooms sayers and forums for them to vent.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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I don't believe we make less than those other trades at all. In fact, I make more than any of the people I know in those other professions you've mentioned. If you're making less then it's because you're selling yourself short.
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Bruce is right. If you're paid less than the trades mentioned, it's because you allow yourself to be.
There is another shop in the area that I keep trading the "highest price" title with. And I do between 75% and 90% of the jobs I quote. Why? Because the customers that call me already know not to call if they're only looking at price. Even the odd one that is concerned about price usually figures out I know what I'm talking about and price becomes secondary.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Too often people don't want to look in the mirror and examine the reasons for why they are not making the money they want to be making. But they are very quick to find reasons because of things outside their control, such as: • lowball people • market won't bear those prices • i can't sell that kind of work here
But do they stop and say, well, what are the things I can control myself. • continuing education in your skills • continue reinvestment in your business • investment in your own image (most important) • aggressive advertising and marketing
I shake my head sometimes when all the excuses as to why a sign person can't be successful or command the right dollars. So much of the customer's experience and/or expectation about YOUR business is PERCEPTION. I see so many sign companie's who's own image is nothing short of embarrassing. And their own lack of skills, doesn't help. And the lack of marketing they do for their own business.
I see horrible web sites for sign companies. Forget the aesthetics which are generally horrible and home-grown - there's no marketing on them. No search engine optimization. No chance of bringing in search engine business. And to me, its sad. Sad because I know first hand how a well designed AND optimized site can literally change a sign companies business. Most sign companies think investing $5k in a web site is ludicrous, but they are quick to invest $15k in digital printer, and have it sit. Or maybe they consider it a unwise investment because they bought Dreamweaver and think they can do it yourself.
I've only had my 'fancy' office for 3 years. Prior, I was home based. But if you visited my web site, saw my brochure, you would never know. Perception. Now I have the office, the nice waiting area, receptionist, beautiful office, awards on the wall, conference room, etc. You walk into my place, and you know its the real deal. And you know, it's not going to be cheap.
Yes, I don't do signs anymore but we still do a ton of vehicle wrap design and the logos that come with it. We just did a logo design, and vector-only design for a 18' landscape trailer (logo and some striping)- for $2100. The client understood the value of what we provided because it was marketed to him properly, and put into the right context.
So much is wrapped up in the customer's perception of what you do.
I continue to preach and firmly believe that design is your only chance to distinguish yourself, coupled with smart and aggressive marketing of your firm to the right audience.
And like Bruce said - you need to ask for the money. It takes some time - but that's the way you get the dollars. But you can't ask for the dollars unless the market is convinced you deserve them. Which goes back to the perception and image of your own business.
ANd Deri, I hope this doesn't come off as being directed at you. I think your ideas on how to improve the perception of the trade are spot on.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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The response to this, as usual, splits into two conflicting opinions:
One is that we are victims of forces beyond our control - computerization, lowball competition, cheap customers, etc., and that we are forever at the mercy of the decisions of others.
The other is that we control our own destiny, set the standards and policies by which we offer our services to the public, and that the activities of our competitors have no real effect on what we do.
I tend toward the second opinion, but I'm smart enough to realize the answer is a combination of the two. Even those who get "high" prices are constrained, to some extent, by the market - Bert Quimby may get $300 for a pair of truck doors, but he's not likely to get $3000, whether he asks for it or not.
So maybe we should ask ourselves - Why not? Think of it this way. Let's say Bert or any of us letter a truck for a high-end home builder for $300. That image is advertising, part of that homebuilder's campaign to attract customers. If the truck lasts five years, that's 60 months, which means he has bought highly visible and mobile advertising for FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH! My question then is, how could any rational person consider a $300 truck lettering job to be "expensive"?
The problem is, and continues to be, that we market our products as a fixed commodity instead of a value-added service. We do this because instead of convincing our customers of the advertising value of our service, we let them convince us that our work is a fixed commodity. There's no question why customers do this, it is clearly and forcefully in their interest to do so - if they paid for signage the going rate they pay for other forms of visual advertising, a truck lettering job would be as expensive as a newspaper or magazine ad; they'd pay us to create it and then pay us monthly to continue using it.
But that's not how it works, does it? We've all bought into our customer's idea of value, instead of our own. A big part of this is that it allows us to be lazy. It's easier to be short-sighted and take $100 for a putting helvetica in vynull on a truck door than to attempt to convince a customer that a well-executed and skillfully applied image is in his best interest; that even though it costs a lot more up front, it has a far greater return in advertising value.
From the kind of work I see out there, I'm guessing that about 1% or less of all the people in the sign business can even grasp this, and less than half of that put it into practice.
But here's the best part - those that "get it" and practice it consistently, really DO make a decent living, in spite of the indifference and self-defeating incompetence of the vast bulk of the industry. Believe me, if that wasn't the case, I'd have locked up my shop and gone to park cars at the casino a long, long time ago.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think I have given a lot of people the wrong impression here. I am probably the highest priced signaker in the area. I have always been busy. I always have a list of work to do. I get a VERY good dollar for the work I do. I am not whining about how much I make except to say that I really don't think its fair that other trades seem to have a different ladder they climb. I have got to constantly be on a learning curve in this business. I am constantly either upgrading equipment (computers etc) or learning a new facet of the industry. Learning curves and technology is down time. But yet I look at the skilled trades in the area. A kid coming out of high school and apprenticing with my husband in his business (Masonry) can acheive the highest pay in his skilled trade within 10 years and KEEP that high wage for his entire career. He does not have to learn any new technology, he does not have to invest in new equipment, have down time while he learns it, none of it. In short he can continue doing exactly what he is doing for the rest of his life and create himself a lovely little nest egg in the process. (And yes it would be a boring job, and no I would not want to do it.)
Our industry is not in any way like that. We work our patooties off to get a good solid client base the first 10 years, then we spent the next umpteen years trying to keep what we have. While precariously balancing between should we spend the extra hours to make it that much better or will we start to go down the slippery slope of caring too much and losing hourly wage.
Other trades get to the top quicker, and for all intensive, stay there with little or no effort at all. We still have to keep learning, keep upgrading. Perhaps that will get to a point where the technology slows down enough that we don't have to but looking at the changes since I've been in business, well sheesh.
I just thought it would be nice if there were some sort of Quality (not test, I don't know what I am looking for here) something that we could educate the general public with that if they seen we had that "stamp" they could feel confidant in us and our work. Something that would at least stop our good artists from losing their shops, giving them a decent wage for their worth.
I guess I am at a loss for the right words because I don't know what it is we need. But I think we need something.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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Dan misses the point. A lot of the trades don't have to invest in $5,000 websites, expensive new equipment or keep up with training and learning skills. Like Deri said, they keep doing well after their initial apprenticeship or education.
Those things that Dan mentioned are good things but they should be considered an adjunct to what we already have to push us to another income level not just to stay even or just get by.
I consider most people that frequent this site to be a bit more concerned about quality, skills and continuing a higher level of craftsmanship. Still many are getting too disillusioned about working in this business. For me, I have my days but am still surprised on how well I have weathered a tough economic climate for longer than the rest of the country has experienced. Next year, who knows?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Deri, what I guess I'm not understanding is this. Is it your competition is getting a lower price for the same work you do. Or nobody is buying signs? If nobody is buying signs, then it may be time to move. If your competition is undercutting you, then you need to work on selling the perceived value of YOUR work and maybe have a talk with the lowballers in your area about the percieved value of their work too. Dan Antonelli makes a very good point about perceived value in his post along with some great words by Glenn Taylor. This rant has been hashed out at least 10 times in the past 10 years on this board and it seems the same people come on here and try to exlain what it is that is being done wrong by those that are unhappy with their situation. Dan, Cam, Glenn, Si, Joey, Bruce, Kissy and quite a few others have opened my eyes to what it is that is being done wrong in this business and how they overcame it. The money is there, you just need to find out what it takes to get it from thier pocket into yours. Perceived value is probably the most important thing. Educating the customer is your job. Then educating your competition is the next most important thing. They need to know how much money they are leaving on the table by selling signs for pennies on the dollar.
Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Have you noticed when some client calls up and asks for you, they want YOU. Ole Paint is right in getting a niche. When I satrted 21 years ago here there were three window splashers. The other two died. One of cancer and the other on a motorcycle. I 'inherited' the market, but still, I market my goods and services every day. You just have to keep pounding your name into people's heads, constantly.
Every year, I see someone else show up here and bang out a few windows. Great! I love competition. It makes clients aware of the need and gives me more work. Competition is healthy. What is difficult is that most of them last only a few months because they do not market their services.
I charge more than most of the skilled, licensed trades. I charge more than many attorneys. I tell my clients who tell me I am more expensive than their attorney to call their attorney if they want a sign.
The secret is keeping your overhead low and your prices high enough to weather the slow times and then, do the marketing. Snail mail, email, phone calls and certainly, cold calling! It is about selling and not just making good looking signs. It is a business, after all. This is not just sitting around and waiting for the phone to ring.
Think about how to get into a niche, where you are the only one and best there is for that product. Anyone can run a computer and weed out some vinyl. As soon as you feel that ball and chain attching to your leg, start running! Get specialized! Do something unique and stunning. Some clients will notice, but many are not smart enough to see. You have to show them.
They will never license us to make signs because all it really takes is a brush and a can of paint. You can have all the expensive equipment you want and yet people like me will be out there selling with so much less overhead. You just have to work smart and not just hard.
My two cents worth. Make money, no stress and have fun!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Harris Kohen: Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price.
I can't answer that for you Harris... and really nobody can... but besides the obvious reason of nobody getting inside your head to ever really know the true source of your feelings... we also can't keep up with the many details of our friends situations...
..so, I'll state that this reply is for anyone, not just Harris... but since Harris asked, I'd have to ask do you spend $25K a year for a commercial space? $30K a year for equipment leases? $70K a year on employees? ...I don't have the figures in my head for other utilities, insurance, & assorted overhead expenses... but I do know that some of the work I do, I bid against people working out of their home, with half or less than half of my overhead expenses...
...even my own employees who know I am losing money this year, not getting paid anything... they don't always understand the higher prices I want them to charge, or the speed I want them to kick clients to the curb who waste their time... until it hits you in your own wallet... it's hard to train people to understand the cost of doing business...
But I don't believe the reason any veteran sign professional may feel like proper prices for signs are high, would be due to a global perception of a lowering value of our products. There certainly are folks who do not value our products as high as they should... but if we stop letting them name their prices... they can do without, or bring their perception up to OUR level, in order to make a purchase.
By the way, I took home a 6 figure income in '07, and still made money last year, while half my time (& all my savings) were spent expanding my shop) ...so, my timing wasn't ideal in many ways, and if I hadn't expanded last year, I'd be profitable today... but I have no doubt I will hit a 6 figure income again & this slow period is being used to educate myself on my new CNC opportunities & to position myself for dramatic additional growth as soon as consumer spending is on the rise again.
quote:Originally posted by David Wright: Dan misses the point. A lot of the trades don't have to invest in $5,000 websites, expensive new equipment or keep up with training and learning skills. Like Deri said, they keep doing well after their initial apprenticeship or education. ?
Really? You think the overhead to run a plumbing business or electrical contracting business is low? Besides the costs for shop trucks and vans, office/garage space, their overhead is pretty high. They need to continually replace 40k vans, their ad budgets are usually very high. And the markup on equipment is not substantial. NOt to mention their workers comp.
I'm not saying every say company needs to invest in a $5k web site, but I'll tell you this - nearly every successful business needs to reinvest money into marketing themselves properly; sign business or plumbing business.
This isn't a referendum on sign people needing web sites, it's a referendum on sign people needing to promote themselves professionally, the need to carefully craft a marketing message, and continue to stress the importance of design versus time and materials.
You can disagree - and that's fine - really.
I know some people don't agree with my stance on the importance of design or the philosophies which has garnered me my successes. And that's OK, too.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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My slant on "Skilled Trade". First, anything to do with signs in today's world probably shouldn't be called a trade. That is, that I know of. Probably it should only be known as a business most of all. Operating a sign "Business" today certainly will require some skill though. We have all seen proof of that right here on these pages as well as the portfolio pages. I refer to pictures of well crafted signage/pin stripe/mural et al.
Speaking only for myself as a boneified (journeyman) sign painter, certified in Illinois, that to become a skilled trades person required a s--tload of effort before becoming involved in a skilled trade. In many crafts..! Albeit, all who attend this site with many many references to your own slant and proof, obviously as noted. Still (In my mind)do not fall under the catagory of skilled trade. I'm not bitchn', just makin' a point. So what would define worthiness as being in a skilled trade today...Is to me someone who does not wonder why, but someone who can create the solution for themselves. If I still had to make money at making signs, you would see smoke from every open door and window at my building because I just simply had (and have had) the will to succeed. Also the desire to hear the CHA-CHING at my CASH register. The answer is simple...Just go OUT and GET IT ! That's called business today, not a skilled trade. As far as making signs is concerned.
What do I know, I'm crazy.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I absolutely love those posting on this forum.
It saves me time and money on the analysists sofa.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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I didn't say or at least mean to say that other trades don't have to have equipment and keep it up to date and to some extent upgrade. What I am tired of hearing is that as much as we bring to the table, have learned and invested is always not enough if someone complains about making a living. Really? Now those things you mentioned should be done to bring it to another level and even expand but not to keep the status quo or to basically subsist.
As far believing in design Dan, you know full well most here are all about that and much more. You're not the only one.
[ September 27, 2009, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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In some ways I may be considered a skilled tradesperson and in other ways I may be considered a businessperson but first and foremost I consider myself a PROFESSIONAL because I feel the marketing knowledge and experience I have acquired along the way makes me very valuable to anyone I work with to further their business or professional aspirations.
Why should anyone with the knowledge base many of us have not consider ourselves as valuable as professionals including chartered accountants, doctors or lawyers?
Education and experience comes in many forms and a certificate on the wall from some accredited institution is no more valuable than the portfolio many of us carry!
It's been some time since I read The E-Myth Revisted but the most valuable insight I got from that book was the difference between working "IN" or "ON" our business. Many of us do not spend enough time working "ON" our business and a huge part of that is marketing ourselves because if we can't properly promote or market ourselves how could we possibly be trusted to promote or market our clients?
When potential clients see that we are very visible and top notch in our own presentation business will flock to your door in good economic times and bad. In fact bad economic times have always been busier for me than boom times because marketing is so much more critical then as marketing becomes a secondary concern when our clients have all the business they can handle.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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Deri articulated her thoughts very clearly, and man, I can understand where she's coming from. Sometimes though, one needs to step back and look at things from a broader perspective. The sign trade took a really_serious_blow with the advent of computers. A lot of adjustment has been necessary. But as the saying goes, "follow the money". Many of those other trades are associated with construction, buildings, land, and...debt. In 1929, the crash was at the stock market. This one is in real estate. So many investments involved RE. The sub prime crises led to a drop in stocks, mutual funds, closures of banks. Ended up with A LOT of folks watching their retirement cut in half. I'm no economist, but I figure that dampened people's enthusiasm for buying stuff, and people are in wait mode. Waiting to see what will happen with land and RE. I'm pretty sure other countries (France) had a very different system of home loans, and have not suffered a sub prime crisis. But it has long been hard to get a loan there, people save for years to make the down payment.
So people are waiting to see what happens, and what if it's something like that? What if land prices deflate? Those other trades could be heading for their own day of adjustments. David Wright said: "For me, I have my days but am still surprised on how well I have weathered a tough economic climate for longer than the rest of the country has experienced. Next year, who knows?" It could be that the worst of our adjustments are past, or leveled off anyway.
But Deri started the thread, and -bump- she's asking about something along the lines of the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. Which sounds interesting, but wait, that would be the sign police...Is David Butler out there laughing somewhere?
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price. [/QB]
what's more disturbing to me, is that there is a price guide, telling you what you should charge...and you think its too high? if you don't think you should be making that $, why would a customer? there's a reason its priced that way. so people can be successful in business. if you always have the attitude that....well, my overhead is smaller, i'll charge less...small wonder this industry sucks as a whole. everyone in it must think they make too much $$. yet no one can pay their bills, afford insurance, put away for retirement or go on vacation. yikes....i shake my head. thank god for other trades that actually make $.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I didn't realize I was in the "Lowest Paid" skill trade! I get paid VERY well for the jobs I take.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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if you go into a field hoping to get rich your going into it for the wrong reasons. the money will come, with patience, experience and money management, common sense and a damn good cpa! everything is a building block. first year in business I billed out $7000 i will NEVER forget that figure and thats what I billed out! I dont know how I made it. every year after that was better and finally it got to the point where it was a pleasure to go to work. jobs were coming in, money being paid, debt was paid off.
i didn tpay attention to the bottom line I was LEARNING! i would do anyhting just to do it. I was fearless and before i knew it my business was not only supporting me but paying insurance, retirement and after 15 years of business i was debt free! I love this business I love my life, well at least when the ecnomy didnt suck! I took care of my company and in the end it took care of me. In return for it I will wait this out and STILL everyday try and make it trhu this bad economy. there is no other job or career I would have chosen
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
Value pricing doesnt work per square ft. or by hour.
You can do a logo for a local small business, or a national chain. The work may be essentially the same for both customers but the value is entirely different. Price accordingly... When you price value, cost of manufacturing has little to do with it, and when you receive value either as a work or service, price has little importance.
[ September 28, 2009, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
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So as to what Karen and Mike say, should the price be dictated by ounces or pounds ? Lots of value there... Wink'...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I have observed that many sign companies are pretty small in terms of staff. Many of you are one person operations with occasional part time helpers. We do many small "projects" comparitivly speaking. One pickup door and tailgate lettering job here, and a site sign there, then a pair of magnetics, then the hours on a commercial door and a 3' x 8' event banner. This is a full day for a one person shop...and at the end of the day you've grossed $800. That's not much when you have to consider overhead and materials....so the answer is volume or doing a steady flow of "high end jobs" So you get a nice job for a monument sign but it takes 4 days of work and a larger outlay for materials...at the end you may only net the same as if you did four days worth of small projects. My choice of a model to emulate would be a well ran FastSign or SignsNow franchise. These company's are set up to take on a mix of small projects and some medium to large projects, but they can complete enough of them on a daily basis because of staffing, organization, technology, and straight forward pricing that is consistant. The key is productivity....you gotta get the jobs done, invoiced and out the door every single day. They have good commercial locations and are open and accessible everyday like clockwork. I do not have the formula or organizational template they have developed...but I try to achieve their plan. Although I do not take home a big salary, I am buying the two properties we operate out of instead of renting. This slow and steady accumulation of equity gives me a sense of progress (it may be largely psychological) that I am being compensated like a skilled tradesperson.
We tend to measure success like observing the all pro NFL running back who makes over a hundred yards a game and don't recognize that there are hundreds of players who make a living gaining 15 yards a game.
One last point, spending time on the internet can have a real impact on daily productivity. I have to keep this in check for myself and my staff. In fact...i better get back to work now.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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Better yet, learn how to sell in the first place. We can talk about how we should sell this instead of that, but it doesn't mean squat if you don't know "how" to sell.
The boss was out of town today so she had our part-timer to cover the front counter so I could concentrate on getting some much needed design work done for a client's website. The phone would ring and I couldn't help but listen to her as she spoke with the client on the other end of the line.
My skin just crawled.
After she handled the 3rd call, I had to stop what I was doing and have a talk with her. I didn't have any choice.
We went over everything from phone etiquette to how to ask a question. Ninety percent of selling is being credible in the eyes of the client (i.e. - a comfortable command of knowledge and attitude).
She made a better effort afterward but I could tell she never reached any sort of comfort zone.
If you ever really want to learn how to sell, go work at a shoe store. That is where I learned to handle more than one customer at a time and how to "read" them. It was one of the best educations I ever got.
.
[ September 28, 2009, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies and sometimes things are out of out control. If someone created a computer program where anyone could buy a program to build a house, do electrical and or plumbing, you could bet your ass that the price these businesse charge would drop. Yes the piece of equipment that has made our lives easier is also reponsible for the downward trend in income.
I have been lettering trucks my whole life, I used to see beautiful lettering on them all the time. Remember Jersey Style? You don't see much of it anymore, it's 90some% computer generated crap.
Without sounding like a jerk, why Dan, if signs are so profitable are you no longer doing them?
Since the age of computerized sign software, the market is flooded with sign shops. I think it is totally unfair to put all of the blame on ourselves, we are responsible for some of this problem, but not all of it.
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 396 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by David Thompson: I have been lettering trucks my whole life, I used to see beautiful lettering on them all the time. Remember Jersey Style? You don't see much of it anymore, it's 90some% computer generated crap.
Without sounding like a jerk, why Dan, if signs are so profitable are you no longer doing them?
Since the age of computerized sign software, the market is flooded with sign shops. I think it is totally unfair to put all of the blame on ourselves, we are responsible for some of this problem, but not all of it.
Signs can be very profitable. Since you're from NJ, I'm sure you know Bert and Rich Dombey, Scottie, and Brian Schofield. All extremely talented guys, doing beautiful, as well as profitable work. The good stuff is still around in NJ, but there's maybe 10 guys in the entire state doing really high end quality work, and about 300 doing really mediocre to horrible work.
My education and background, as well as business goals led me to stop doing truck lettering (I rarely did signs ever) and instead focus on a being a full service ad agency for small businesses. We still design a lot of vehicles, and have talented guys around the state handle the installs. I always thought it was a mistake for sign companies to only focus on one line of business - signs - therefore, this ultimately led me to offer other lines of business. And with logo design being a passion of mine, it ultimately became the foundation for our philosophy of offering small business all their advertising needs under one roof.
Having the unique experience of lettering and pinstriping since I was 13 or 14, coupled with a degree in advertising and 5 years as graphic designer, and art director, I approached how I would run my services. But even when 75% of my work was vehicles, I still made a very good living.
Sure, there are some market conditions to blame. But a smart business person sees what's happening in the industry or their trade, and makes the proper adjustments to plan for it. Those who don't, or are very complacent in their situation are sometimes setting themselves up for failure.
I realized early on that what I was selling was more than letters on a truck - I was really selling advertising. That's what I changed the term early on in marketing materials from 'truck lettering' to 'vehicle advertising.' From what I could see, small businesses needed more than their trucks done- they needed a logo, stationery, brochures, yellow page ads, and later on, of course, a web site. So that became my plan - less clients, spending more money. Signs lasted too long anyway - less chance of residuals from them
I'm not saying I completely foresaw the downward spiral 10 years ago - but I quickly realized that I could make more money sitting behind a desk designing than hanging off the side of a truck installing vinyl. So I really changed my focus, and pushed the business where I wanted to take it. And it hasn't been easy or a walk in the park to get here.
All I'm saying is - look at the road ahead - and plan accordingly. And if you're on the wrong road, takes the steps needed to change so that you can arrive at the destination you wish to be. There's may be plenty of detours and obstacles, but only you can be responsible for the path you travel - no one else can dictate that.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I honestly can't offer too much on this thread other than to say what I have said in the past too many times. Go after corporate work. Those are the clients that will provide repeat and profitable work.
The guy who is doing the ordering is not the guy who signs the checks.
THAT makes a huge difference.
I always watched costs since was the one ordering materials and knew that I had to write the check at the end of the month.
I may not be the best example..BUT..Before stumbling into the signmaking BUSINESS I had languished, living day to day, running a body shop, which I have a country wide licence for.
After stumbling into the sign business, my income soared. Costs were low, profits were high. I retired out of the business 2 years ago because I made some serious money in it.
If I had remained in the bodywork business, I'd still be working and wondering how the next month's utility bills would get paid.
Was I a "great" designer? NO
But I did subscribe to Signcraft mag and did strive to improve my original rudimetary design skills.
Was I a "great" businessman? Not really, but I learned from my lessons in the previous business and never undercut the price of what my work was worth.
I went from "day to day" living to retirement in about 15-16 years.
The sign business was the best thing that ever happened to this vinyl jockey!!
As others have said...if yer in "business" treat it like a business, because the world is full of starving artists!!!
I know all about those who say they want to die with a brush in their hand....It was not for me..I wanted to die with a margarita in my hand and a palm tree shading me...I earned and attained my goal.
Oh...By the way...some good luck helps too!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I consider myself an artist before a businessman. But I am in business and see the need to be profitable.
Passion for the art drives me much, much harder than the money I make. But that doesn't mean I forget about the money - nor charge enough for my work. I like to get the money part of any job out of the way early in the game... then spend my time doing what I love.
If you do exactly what everyone else does it will be very hard to charge a premium for your work. The market around you will dictate your price. If you specialize and operate in a niche market you can call the shots.
Luck certainly plays a part in our success... but I believe we can shape our luck to a big degree by positioning ourselves purposely. Be today (on a small scale) what you want to be (in a larger scale) tomorrow. Purposely do at least some small thing every day that puts you further down the road to your goal.
Dream big. Then beging setting that dream in motion. Follow your passion. Make some money in the process. Live life to the fullest along the way.
Be successful according to your definition.
All these things are easy to rattle off... harder to do. But all very possible if you choose to do it!
Living the dream in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I think we should all go and work for Signarama, Signs Now and signwave??? That way we can mix the skills with the "business acumen".
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The Sign Police LOL I haven't heard much about them in a while! We know how to improve our own businesses. It's been discussed here on a daily basis. I was thinking more along the lines of educating the general public. How they can easily seperate the milk from the cream. But *sigh* I guess no one has any ideas on how to do that.
I am adding this to explain myself a little better. When we go south in the winter we look at 4 to 5 star hotels. We try not to stay in anything under 3+. And we are quite willing to pay the price for it. If I were general public looking for a quicky corro sign with red letters on it I would not need to go to a top notch signmaker to get it. And if i did his rate would likely be substantially higher than I need to pay. I also would not want my $400 thousand dollar house to have a residential corro sign out front. We need a system to help the general public know who to go to for what. Perhaps it would help our more highly skilled artisans to create the client base they need as well as stop the tire kickers from buggin them on a daily basis.
[ September 29, 2009, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Deri Russell: The Sign Police LOL I haven't heard much about them in a while! We know how to improve our own businesses. It's been discussed here on a daily basis. I was thinking more along the lines of educating the general public. How they can easily seperate the milk from the cream. But *sigh* I guess no one has any ideas on how to do that.
I think the problem is, that the majority of the general public does'nt care about quality, price is the issue for them.
Think about the age of the person starting their businesses these days. These people have'nt even heard of paint, they grew up only knowing about vinyl.
Now comes the question, profit or enjoying what you do. Many of us are old school and don't keep up with the times. I know I should be doing things differently than I do, but I can't see doing mindless work for profit, so I will never be successful financially. But to be honest, I would rather live a modest life and continue doing what I love. I have no one to blame but myself, to an extent.
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 396 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: Since you're from NJ, I'm sure you know Bert and Rich Dombey, Scottie, and Brian Schofield. All extremely talented guys, doing beautiful, as well as profitable work. The good stuff is still around in NJ, but there's maybe 10 guys in the entire state doing really high end quality work, and about 300 doing really mediocre to horrible work.
I'm sure it was'nt meant this way, but I am offended at this statement. There are WAY more than about 10 people doing high end work in Jersey, I can think of quite a few others in the state equal to the friends you just noted. Maybe they have'nt chose to be in the public eye (Signcraft, Signs of the Times) but they are out there.
[ September 29, 2009, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: David Thompson ]
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 396 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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