posted
excuse me while I rant here- But I would like to know why a plumber, electrician, mason, contractor etc etc mke more money than we do????? We are expected to A) keep up with computer technology B) know everything and anything about how to manufacture and install outdoor signage to withstand all and every possible thing mother nature can throw at us C) be artistically knowledgeable about design and carving and illustrating and the print industry and paint technology Yet we are the LOWEST paid of the trades!!!!
In short I think we have to know FAR more than the average tradesperson and KEEP UP WIH IT.
I was reading Ray Chapmans thread yesterday about his businss and how the "moneymakers" came in and told him he had to become a cookie cutter in order to make real money and its been stuck in my craw ever since. How can we change this???
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Why are we the lowest paid? Because we choose to be.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Say WHAT???? I don't know Bruce. I did not choose to go into this "skilled trade" because it was the lowest paid. I did not say to myself gee, I think I will become a sign artist because it is the bottom of the totem pole for bucks. I think we have to come up with a way to change it. We rant about it but nothing changes. We are some of the most creative people in the world. Let's think our way out of this.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Did you check to see what the average sign person made before you got into it? Plumbers, electricians know full well what their pay will be. Now maybe the owner of a plumbing firm is not getting paid due to business problems, but that is another matter. It is what it is. Oh, but I hear how money is not the most important thing but the artistic fulfillment we get is just as important.
I dunno.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Well, Deri... I'm sure you see plenty of posts that say that sign makers should NOT be and if you are, you're not charging enough... "just raise your prices", "charge more", etc. etc.
I'll take a little different tack and give you my opinion... (besides the obvious "we just don't charge enough). I think customer perception is a lot of it...
People often view signs as optional. If they have a building project, the electrical and plumbing things have to be done, and there's not much variance on how they can do it. On signs, they know there's a wide range of things available and they try to cheap out if money is a little tight.
Also, the customer doesn't know what all goes into those other jobs, so the big number they see for a price estimate means little to them. They imagine the electrician will probably have multiple workers and specialized tools spending lots of hours, with all kinds of insurances and other costs. A sign or banner, on the other hand, is a little easier to put a price on, in their head. They just see it as a "piece of some kind of aluminum stuff with some letters on it. The computer probably did it all..." We've probably been guilty of making it look too easy.
Also, it's a product as opposed to a service. They can easily call around and get prices. There are no inspectors to insure an even playing field, so our price is compared to the new guy in town whose sign will look like crap compared to ours.... to a customer that is low on money, the cheapest price looks too good sometimes.
So I guess that leads to some of the advise you will hear.... do stuff other signs shops aren't. Do more complicated jobs that 'LOOK' like they'd cost a lot of money, so your big number doesn't sound so bad. However, I'm still struggling to overcome that age-old thing that drives Dan, Cam, Raymond and the others crazy.... 'they won't buy that stuff in my town.'
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Most of the trades on your list are "licensed". That tends to keep the hacks out of play. With the exception of a few cities, there have never been much in the way of restrictions on sign people.
The last regular job I had was as a journeyman sign painter at a commercial shop. I believe I was paid $11.50/hr. This was almost thirty years ago. Pay for a comperable position today is what??? The same or a few dollars more...maybe less. There was a time when our wages were much closer to that of a plumber/carpenter/mason, but those days are long gone.
I could go on a rant on how the trade has basically gone in the toilet in the last twenty years, but I'll spare everybody as it's all been said before.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I want both. Artistic fulfillment AND money.
No I did not look into it before I started actually. I fell into this business. But here I am. Loving what I do. But not getting the wage that a "skilled" plumber makes. And yes the toilet probably is more important than the sign on the door that says Women (or Men). But holy camoly, with no sign we'd have a real problem finding it.
Or there might be some pretty messy broom closets.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Because of the computer age, anyone that can afford a computer and cutter can make a sign. No matter how generic it is. Their low prices cause the lowball shoppers to affect the entire trade. As we all know, some customers only want price, with no regard to artistic merit, legibility, code, etc. Not everyone can be a plumber, electrician, etc as easily due to factors mentioned previously.
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
This has been debated here many times before, but the answer is still the same. If you do the same work as someone else, that someone can and will do it for less money. Since there are no enforced professional standards, licensing, or inspections (beyond some electrical safety codes on electric signs), the low cost of entry makes this an attractive business that, to the uninitiated, looks easy.
The only answer to this is self- development of your own skills, the discipline to charge a fair value for your work, and the guts to say NO to customers who want the kind of work which devalues your skills, or who attempt to dictate prices and schedules. None of that is easy, but that's the only answer that makes any sense.
There are people who make damn good money in this trade. But a lot of them have lost interest in sharing their knowledge with people who complain about cheap customers and competitor's low prices, but then find every excuse for not making any change in their own behavior or policies. Not to sound harsh, but this is a hard truth that no amount of internet forum discussion is going to change.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think its a multi faceted problem and that is why it has never been resolved. Historically, all of the other trades organized, standardized, unionized etc. I don't think that could ever have happened in the sign trade, mainly because of the type of personality drawn to this business.
I see sign people generally split into two camps: 1. Artists who found that they could make some form of living while still doing art in the form of sign making. 2. Purely business minded people who have sought to automate and standardize the industry who have created the franchise model.
The artistic sign maker spends their down time learning new techniques and getting all excited by some new discovery (I am guilty daily of this) and I think that the business minded sign maker spends down time fine tuning their marketing, streamlining production and steering clear of the projects that eat up time and profit that the artistic sign maker is itching to get into their shop.
Another complication with all of it is that the shop with the storefront, the insurance, the shop trucks etc. has to compete with the guy making signs in his garage (yep, been that guy too more than once.)
So what is the answer? Regulation? Union? Anyone who has tried to operate a business in California (sign shops included) will tell you that its a living hell.
I view it that you can't have your cake and eat it too. My brother is a software developer and makes 4 times as much money as I do. If I did that kind of work I would want to hang myself. I do this kind of work because I enjoy it immensely and it allows me to survive. I have traded making money for doing what I enjoy, and I think thats a fair trade.
We will leave California eventually. Too many regulations, insanely inflated living costs and a growing irritation with the cultural changes here will force us out. And that's how it goes. Artists hate to be regulated.
As far as finding good pay doing what we do, Da Vinci had to hound the Vatican to get paid for his work. Some things may never change...
posted
I Like John's Response but It boils down to.. "We have no test" Electricians have a test to become certified,
Plumbers have a test to become Certified..
Beauticians and Nail Techs Have a test,
Even Massage Therapists have a test.
But for sign makers. Naaa We're not that important. It is just not that much of a respected trade any longer. (Until we're not here) People wouldn't even know where to poo if it wasn't for us. (Ref. Irish Pub Post.)
Maybe the United States Sign Counsel, SIGA or other so called group that's suppose to be looking out for the Sign Industry, work on that instead of trying to protect all the large Corps who want to put up 5000 Digital Reader Boards along I-10 in LA.
I'll admit I am all self taught, But it's just in my nature to always do or be the best at whatever I do, So I am always trying to learn new techniques, Styles, Etc. Is going to make me more money, Hopefully yes as it will keep me ahead of the curve of the other shops around here.
posted
I am not complaining about lowballers. I understand there is not a thing I can do about that. And to tell you the truth I am happy there is sign shops in the area who are happy to take the mundane jobs that I don't really want to badly. And no, unions are not the answer. I realize that. Frankly I am of a mind that unions are a big part of what has gotten us into this global financial crisis. That and the big banks. Everyone seems to think I am just a money grubbing little whiner. Yeah, could be. But no, I want fair price for fair effort. I put in years of college for design. I put hours and hours into figuring out how to run my equipment effectively. Hours and hours into researching my methods of manufacture. And yet when I look around me at what others are acheiving for far less time and effort it flips my *ahem.* And now I am watching while seriously gifted artists have to "move on" with different careers because they are not getting what they are worth! It's too sad!
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Bill I think you've got the seed of a great idea there.
We have to educate the public somehow. Having worked for the Liquor Control Board (yeah, a job I had while my real job materialized) I watched wineries come into their own. They developed what is known as VQA. Vintners Quality Assurance. If you look on a wine bottle, usually some of the more expensive brands, you can probably find the VQA stamp. This stamp means that that particular bottle of wine has met the criteria of their regulations. And their rules are stringent. The wine must be of yearly consistant quality, has etc etc (can't remember now quit the board over 10 years ago) but I do know that I will not buy a bottle of wine unless it has that stamp. And the Liquor boards went wild advertising this. And it worked. Some of the smaller yet outstanding wineries cae into their own.
[ September 25, 2009, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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When talking to a customer, look act and talk like a professional...AND don't act like you are afraid that they may walk away!
Have examples of your work for them to look at, then give them prices for good, better, best and outstanding. Just like plumbers, electricians, and the rest do. Then tell them a 50% deposit is required.
Tire kickers and cheapos will quickly make themselves very evident. In that case thank them for their inquirey...and get back to work.
I have been in this crazy biz for over 42 years and do not try to compete with newbies and lowballers. I will not work for 'burger flipper' wages.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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now that i've pulled my head out of my anal cavity(ya know, because i decided to go back to a career part time that actually pays well)...i feel good about passing on no profit jobs.
but in the sign industry...we are the problem...we are our own worst enemy. the industry and its **** poor model, lead by artists without a lick of business sense. but hey if people wanna work for free...have a ball....i'm all done. i work for $ only....and well, food...i'll do trade...lol.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Of all the points that were made on this post, how many are going to be used?
In my line of work, I get paid as much as any white collar worker. A fifteen minute job is fifty dollars and custom jobs which take a few hours of actual work net me three, four hundred dollars or more. Of course I am good at what I do and take care of business and act professionally as I deal with my customer and with the tools I choose to use. I cannot remember losing a job on any quote or meeting whether I've done it the following day or following month. My trip is never cheapening out on whatever it is that I work on and this is what separates the good from the great. My line of business may be different then yours but I never had to add other activities to make ends meet and I geared myself to make exactly what I needed monthly to accomplish my goal as this is what I specialized in. Even my palettes are custom made so I don't look like a magazine thief, right down to my killerkart rather then a milk crate. Looking professional always worked for me after all with my accent, I need everything to look correct
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
So what are you saying? Be professional- be good at what you do and you will get the money you deserve? Then why do we all hear of the Plumber's Crack jokes?
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
No matter what profession we choose to be in, signs, landscaping, pottery, carpentry, whatever, if we do the same "thing" as the other person, we can expect to have others do it for less.
By choosing to do something "different" or "better" than the other person, will result in creating something the customer just "has to have." And it's usually the type of work we really want to do in our hearts.
When no one else is doing that type of work, we are more in control of the pricing.
Our customers see our passion, capabilities, attitude, professionalism, and confidence.
Like any other profession. We get out of it, what we put into it.
Putting my heart into it everyday.
Peace, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
TALENT, AND HOW MUCH YOU REALLY BELIVE YOU ARE WORTH, AND THE TIME IT TAKES YOU TO COMPLETE projects........DICTATE PAY!!!!! i speak in defence of a couple REALLY GREAT SIGN DESIGNERS i have know, BUT they got into such ANAL, OCD, about a job they was doin, that it wound up most of there WORK WAS FOR LESS WAGES THEN....flippin burgers PAID...... for the same amount of time involved. and ive done "hack" work, in such a short period of time......i felt bad GETTING PAID, as much i did ...........for the time i had in it. BUT TOOK THE MONEY hahahahha!!!! and most WILL SELL THEM SELFS.......cheap, to get the work, ive done it enough times also. need money for a bill, rather then go for FULL PRICE... you undercut yourself.......SO YOU CAN GET THE MONEY FOR SURE. NOW.........with the uninteligent one with money to buy a PRINTER....... it makes it even harder to get good pay. just cause they can print for less then a $1 a sq ft..........THEY DONT WANT TO HAVE AN IDLE MACHINE........so they sell work for $2.......JUST TO KEEP THE PRINTER RUNNING!!!!!! really dumb......when you think about it. BUT that is how it is gona be........UNLESS YOU FIND something your better at......THEN THOSE WHO SELL CHEAP. like the guy who did all of SANIBEL ISLAND, FL, ROUTED/SANDBLASTED SIGNS. got himself a HIGH PAYING CLIENT.......and did ALL THE SIGNS....for YEARS!!!!! i remember reading an article about a guy with a tiny shop, somehow got the contract to do all the MARLBORO MAN VANS...... they did 10-15 years ago. one GREAT CONTRACT... is all you need. my freind in sarasota, did all the BUDWIESER SIGNS..... for years........TILL ONE DAY THEY GOT A PRINTER...and wanted him to come in a teach their $5 an hour employee........HOW TO MAKE SIGNS!!!!! find a "NICHE"........and go with it...i still hand paint, do a lot of "50's-60's art work, for collectors...who want it to look ORIGINAL, no stickers allowed!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Deri.... my response was made "tongue in cheek" so to speak.
I once asked Bert Quimby how he could get three hundred bucks lettering a pick up truck. He told me because he asks for it.
Too many people are afraid to ask so they settle.
Because they choose to...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I know Bruce. And I' sorry, didn't mean to snip at you.
So I guess the general concensus is: we know we are the lowest paid, but we love what we do so we are just going to keep doing it. And if we are going to do anything about it at all we will increase our quality of work, if that's possible, causing more man hours.
Got it.
Yeesh.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I wouldnt think a damn good sign company or signman was the lowest paid on the totem pole. I think we make damn good money IF we are soliciting to larger commerical clients. Now if you take a sign guy that does vinyl and corolplast and banners all day to another one that does backlit, customer formed plastic and architectural, thats a big difference.
I dont think we can go around comparing what we make to what others make. we all own different business and we have to charge accordingly for our services. It comes out to whats left over after all bills are paid
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
boy talk about me not being able to type this am
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
There's too may sign shops! I hope the good ones survie the economic downturn. That may not be the case.
I wondeer if there's an element of truth in Sean's post? Which is to say, in a few years, will we look back to see the Business Types, (Sticker Shops) weather our economics better than the custom shops.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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I urge great caution before inviting Joseph Stalin into your business. People claim to enjoy artistic freedom, but ask for regulation...hmmm. (This in regard to private or government intervention.)
There are some great suggestions above, I haven't been able to implement them all, but one thing I find interesting about this trade is the disproportion thing: The knowledge required to make the signs is vast, the knowledge to run the business part is less. So I think the artistic types tend to assign importance along those lines, not realizing that diligent business practices are as important as the artistic knowledge. Maybe there's even an inverse rule sort of deal. The more artistic the endeavour, the greater diligence required in the business side.
[ September 26, 2009, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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No one could be called a sign artists without basic design skills. "Heavy Penalties"
There should be an apprentice program which bestows the degree "Professor of Letters"
Seasoned sign artists get full insurance, Free.
It' a criminal act to insult or argue with a seasoned artist.
You can't use vinyl knowledge as part of the degree program.
These are only a few good idea's I've got ratteling around in my head. I'd post others but affraid I'd set some folks hair on fire.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Truth is, if somebody wanted to press the issue, it would take little effort to point out the hypocrisy in what I previously said...."Listen Mr. Donahue, J Stalin was big on GOVERNMENT. As a conservative, you surely know that what creates a lot of government intervention are people that do not govern themselves. A private coalition of craftsmen is not the same as invasive government, in case you didn't notice"
Right-o, but why do I suspect that the shops with the best line of credit and the $175,000 store front will have more influence? How long will it be before there IS an influence on government policy by said coalition? Notice what happened in the funeral/casket business. Hoo-boy. Or the huge price fixing affair from about 9 years ago in agri-business. There is a movie out right now about the very incident. When there is mention of rules or organizing, I get skeptical, and rightly so.
[ September 26, 2009, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
James, What happened in the casket business? I had a customer who started up a casket business but got out of it. Just curious. You can PM if you want so we don't hyjack the thread.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Just my 2 cents worth, Deri - you've got to stop thinking like a designer, and start thinking like a Signman. I was a sign painter before I became a designer - Let me tell you something - designers don't get paid what they are worth, but I've always got paid for my signs. I believe Si said it best, because it works for me: When talking to a customer, look act and talk like a professional. Have complete confidence in your skill and yourself. Give the price you want to get, and don't change it. I like the comment about Bert Quimby - he asked for the price he wanted; Bert was very successful, from what I've read in Signcraft. When I talk to my customers, I sound confident, knowledgeable, and I can see it and hear it in them, that they can trust me, and they give me what I ask for price. Occassionaly I get the cheapo's and I cut them loose quickly, because it's not about me - they have issues that I can't resolve. Be confident Deri! You Are As Good As You Think You Are! Be a strong Sign Chick! YA! Now go out there, and get YOUR money!!
-------------------- Kathy Weeks Weeks-End Signs & Graphics Lake Elmo, Minnesota Posts: 248 | From: Lake Elmo, Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2009
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I visited your website and encourage others to do so.
Now I see where you are coming from. Don't agree but now I understand.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
In Florida, we have a contractors test for state certification (electrical) and our county where our biz is located (and most surrounding counties) require at minimum a non-electrical sign contractors license to install anything non-electrical, including vinyl on windows. It cost us over $1000 to get the license and my husband studied as much as those taking a general contractors exam. We thought it would help us to get a leg up on the competition.
The problem is the cities, counties, state don't do enough to crack down on those who are doing it illegally. We lose jobs all the time because they tell clients they don't need to get a permit and they install for little money. They never get caught.
I for one am so sick of this freakin' business. The absolute only reason I am still dealing with it is so I can have the freedom to do what I want like taking my daughter to and from school and swimming practice, going on field trips, etc. If I could find a part-time job during school hours I'd close within the week.
I have no passion for it at all anymore. Anyone want to buy me out? Ha!
[ September 26, 2009, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Joe, you might be going ad hominem there, but thanks for the plug.
As far as caskets goes, I'm reffering to the whole death business. I'm pretty sure that here in Tn, caskets have now been deregulated, anybody can make them. But there were laws about licensing, and the cost of funerals was high, the funeral homes sold the caskets, and the whole thing was expensive.
Maybe it all depends on whether you can convince lawmakers of the perils of unlicensed practitioners in your trade. Take pianos for instance, hard to convince lawmakers of the hazard there. There has been a Piano Technician's Guild for years. They had high standards, testing, and a good reputation. It helped a tuner or rebuilder to be able to say he was a member. At one point,(I'm pretty sure) that my son was the youngest member in the country. It was all self governed, a pretty neat thing. But then they started charging something like $220 a year for membership, and the teenage boy dropped out. I sat in on one of the meetings, it was cool. They have smaller meetings once a month, in the evenings, instead of a big 2 day thing every so often. I thought it was more workable, and was favorably disposed to doing the same thing for local sign people.
But how do you control the thing, without that very element of control turning against the original intent?
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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