posted
I've got to bid on an historic wall sign re-do. The wall is an old brick wall, not block. It's about 12-15 feet (3 meters) above street level, and next to the sidewalk, so it's close to a busy street. I would like to airless paint the background, but Murphy and all, I'm concerned about overspray and cars. Should I paint the front of the bricks with a roller, and between them with a brush? My guess is that since it's old, the mortar is worn, and the grooves deeper. That's how it is on other old buildings nearby.
Also, I'm thinking about using a quality latex, not One Shot. Any recommendations? Lastly, it's white letters, darker background, should I paint white first, then cut the background around it?
I have lots of experience with lettering block walls, just not latex, and not brick. Thanks for any help.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Don't spray....your asking for trouble. The old fashion brush & roller way is much better. You get enough paint on it to last. If the dark background is real dark, I'd use 1 shot. Use the white base for the letters. As far as latex or oil ....I'e heard that the old bricks like the oil base primer better. But what do I know!
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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Be sure to use a coat of masonry sealer that'll keep the old brick from soaking up twice as much paint as you would without the sealer coat. Home depot or lowes sells the stuff for arround ten dollars a gallon,alot cheaper tha a couple of extra gallons of paint,.....it's also clear if you need to repaint any old existing copy. Use a very thick roller cover and there will be alot less touching up of the mortar joints,...
edited to add it will also make your work last longer as it acts like a primer for the next coat,..I'd paint the lighter color first then reverse cut the darker background with oil based paint like it was done in the old days,..as in actual restoration with oil based paints,more than likely the same way it was done to begin with,..
[ September 24, 2009, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sherwin Williams makes a 'Conditioner' for old masonry walls. I just examined a 40 year old block building that I did a huge mural for, after the painter repainted the wall. I did the mural ten years ago. He used this SW conditioner and the results are super. Two coats of latex and then I used metal latex. Even the red has held up good and it is in the sun.
On another brick wall (55 years old) it had never been painted and although the bricks and mortar were still holding together well, I had to paint a 20x5' box and letter it. I used three coats of white Sherwin Williams Exterior Super Paint, over a coat of the conditioner. Then I used metal Latex. It is now six years old and the building owner changed with a new business there. He called and I went up there again and inspected it. Still holding up very well, however there is now some deterioration in the mortar. Might get to redo it soon.
Roller? Yes. I use a very tall 1.5" nap lamb's wool roller for these. They do a fine job of getting into the cracks. They take forever to clean up afterwards, but I take pride in reusing them. Lots of H2O. I soak them in a five gallon water container in the back of my truck after I wrap up at the job and let them soak a day or so, then rinse them out with the hose. I even use bleach and rinse again many times. They are expensive, but really worth using.
Tight stuff? I bought some Spanish flats 1",2" and 3". White boar's bristle. They have alot of snap and are worth it to get decent line work. Much better than the chine bristle cheapies at the paint store for 99c. I have also found cutting the latex with 50/50 water and denatured alcohol also gives a bit better flow, like oils. Does anyone know of a better way to thin a bit and keep the flow up? One old guy once told me to try glycerine?
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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definitely masonry sealer and then LATEX do not use ONE SHOT paint on brick. unless your want it to fade out in 1 year or less. I use all latex for wall murals at least use latex with asatin or semigloss
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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James..... Keim paints are made just for that. They're a little pricey, but there are walls in Europe that were done in Keim that still look fine after 100 years. Keim is potassium silicate based & it's a chemical bond, not a physical bond, so if applied correctly will last indefinitely. Inorganic pigments that really don't fade either..... non-toxic as well! The colour pallette is rather muted, but that shouldn't make a difference on a "historic" wall. It only works on brick, glass, concrete & some stone although they have a bridge coat primer that will allow you to use it elsewhere.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 475 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Try this.... www.novacolorpaint.com It's based in California and it has very quick and efficient service! All the water base walls in Pontiac were done with this and eveyone really seemed to like working with it. It is very rich color and has it's own medium and retarder that they recommend. The company was wonderful with their support and will answer all your questions if you call. Ask for a color chart and you will get it right away. We were very impressed with this company. Hey, maybe someone should ask them to be a merchant here!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
All good ideas, and I see we still have some disagreement between oil and latex. Both will work fine, given right prep.
In both situations, the primer is necessary. I've had good luck with both the Sherwin-Williams SuperPaint ( acrylic ) and the S-W Industrial Enamel (oil-based ). I would not recommend using 1 - Shot. Sorry. Some of the murals on the masonry walls over in Vicksburg are dated 2001. They were done in SuperPaint, and still look like new.
In either situation, I agree with the others about using brush/roller over spraying; and yes, I would do the light colors first and cut-in.
posted
After using Nova colors on the murals in Belle Plaine this past weekend...I am sold......
Sorry 1 shot, but I must part ways...I've been using lettering enamel and bulletin colors for the past 10 years on exterior walls...and I've had enough! Fading after 1 year just doesn't cut it!
If Nova Colors worked for 2800 murals in the Philadelphia Mural Arts Program....it'll work for you too! (And that is all they will let you use there)
posted
...The KEIM is the absolutely best wall paint, and lettering enamel (One Shot) is the very worst. Lettering paint is for making letters with a quill, not painting bricks. People who think they have to use it on walls haven't become versed the other available options.
posted
If I read correctly James said this was a "historic" wall sign,...My interpretation was that the client wanted it restored,...the primary reason I got many of the wall restoration jobs here in this area was that I offered to repaint the walls the same way they were done originally,thus an accurate restoration process,...In order to do this one must use materials and methods as close to the original process as possible,not change the process to use totally different materials and methods to confuse and complicate future conservators trying to retain historical accuracy.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Preston.... If you're painting a mural, the concentrates are about $40/kilo. There's only 9 or 10 though. A 500sq.' mural required $1600 CDN in Keim, but that included primer, 20 kilos of white, 5 kilos waterglass to thin, & at least one of each concentrate. A lot of that was freight & customs brokerage as well. I believe their warehouse is in the Charlotte area so those costs would be reduced. Mr Pickett ... I agree.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 475 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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agrees with Timi indeed your gonna hate old brick and mortor worst surface to paint on for sure,.. in order to prepare and enjoy expect the worst anything better will be great with cool drinks, shade n laughter of course a challaging advertisement
posted
Regarding an airless sprayer: It really dosn't do that good of a job coating a wall. A roller puts on a better coat, filling the brick better. Airless spray droplets actually tend to bounce off. A house painter once told me that airless spray is considered a "knock out" way to paint. Not for quality work. Also, under the right conditions, overspray can be a problem even with an airless. In fact, even if you're not spraying at all...
I once coated out a bulletin in a used car lot. They moved every car except one black Chevelle in the far corner. It wouldn't start. No problem. I wasn't even close to the car. And I was not spraying. I was rolling, from the ground. But I got a call later that day. The car was covered in fine white speckles. To have them removed cost me a hundred-dollar bill.
Would that be called roller-spray? Of course, at the time, I didn't think it was funny.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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brad I once had an older helper called himself "Sweet Willy",...He worked for two six packs of budweiser and $40 a day,..the man made me alot of money over the years as he had about fourty years experience in the trade,...only problem was he could be a bit sloppy due to the booze,..well one day I sent him out to roll out a board and rig it so we could paint it the next day,...I got to the carlot (it was one of those that spring up overnite with the trailer at the back of the lot) and there's these three used car salesmen raisin holy hell cause Sweet Willie had "speckled" over fourty cars,..thank god for the $100 deductable on my ins.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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E-gads, reminds me of the time I did a fine mist spray lettering on a friend's van in the shop parking lot. Used a detail gun and black acrylic enamel. Parked my white truck in between the van and the neighbor's vehicles. I didn't know it at the time, but the guy was an ex cop. He got REALLY ticked at the spray paint ordeal. Called a bunch of friends over for a rant and pow-wow. These guys are not even hiding their machine pistols in holsters (looks like sub machine gun). He comes over and starts in on me. I said that if the overspray is such an issue, why is there none on my white truck? Nothing came of it that day, but later, just before an election, I painted a sign on my window warning of a politician that would appoint liberal judges. I think that was the day I found out about his previous work. He REALLY liked the sign. I guess cops get tired of having their evidence thrown out of court. At any rate, he was so happy the he ordered 4 no parking signs on the spot. Life is interesting...
Speaking of which, I called a Local Sherwin Williams paint distributor. The brick sign is about 8 feet tall by 27 feet long. 216 square feet. He said that the can of primer will cover 250 square feet, so 1 gallon should be plenty.
Excuse me while I have my doubts, am I wrong about this? I told him the wall was old and rough, I'm thinking it will take a lot more than that. Drink it up baby.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Reminds me of the time I roller-coated out an 8 x 16 ft billboard in a field. Our van was parked a good 60 yards away, but on packing up to go home, there was this fine 'roller spray' all over it...
The wind carried it well preserved before depositing it down!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
This topic brings up some good questions. When restoring a wall like this, I would tend to agree with the philosophy of using the same type of paint that the wall was originally painted. On the other hand, should the same paint be used when it has turned to crap?
Thinking this out a bit, I would tend to go with a longer lasting paint as long as you could preserve the look. After all, it's the look, the art, the overall appearance that is important. This might be something that maybe the customer should be involved in. Do they want pure restoration or a long lasting replica?
One Shot used to be the paint of choice for long lasting results because it used to be the best paint money could buy.
Just my 2 cents. Any other thoughts?
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I would agree with si on the coverage. The fact that it's a brick wall bring another dimension into it. When you factor all those brick sides into the equation, you'll get way more than 216 sq ft. Besides, old brick can be really porous and old mortar is nothing short of a sponge
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Why does everyone want to equate "oil" with 1-shot? The fact is, walls that I know of were never painted with synthetic enamel. They were always hand mixed from oil-based pigments, like Pratt and Lambert colors ground in oil, with white lead, mixed with linseed and turps, then maybe some Japan drier. This was in the 50's, and I know it was that way for years prior to that. One shot was only ever used for truck doors and flat signs, where drying was important.
I'd go with the Nova colors if it was me. They are far better...unless, like Timi said, you just Have to have an exact reproduction of the old ways. The newer paints hold up so much better...that's technolgy for you.........
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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