posted
A couple of weeks ago we installed some very nice Graphics on a new harley dealership here in St.John's, they were very large graphics measuring aprx 4ft high by 20-30 feet in length.
They were printed on Control Tac Vinyl by 3m... Over the next few days, they started to lift off the wall, they actually peeled back from the Top and Bottom... I can remove them with out damaging the wall. The walls were painted with a latex paint that was specified by Harley Davidson... What do you think went wrong, this is a brand new wall and the paint was cured for over 3 or 4 months, if not longer.
We did apply some lettering to the other side of the bulk head that was printed on regular 3 mil vinyl and that is perfect... I have a suspicion of what happened I just want to hear what you think.
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
controltac adhesive is sorta like a strong adhesive wrapped in a weak one to make it repositionable... right? if so, I'm guessing you didn't break the bubble (for lack of a better term)
I'm assuming some texture to the wall. If you just layed the prints on with a rubber roller or squeegee they probably looked great at first but didn't really stick (release the permanent adhesive) in the texture.
I would probably try moderate heat (hairdryer not heat gun) and work with a rivit brush to release adhesive... but this is only a guess based on limited knowledge of the exact situation (I don't knw anything about cure times or shrinking or anything like that)
[ August 11, 2009, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark Matyjakowski ]
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
These prints were not produced by my shop, a company in Toronto produced these, we just applied them. We used a lot of force in applying these, a lot of force or pressure. They were curing for at least a couple of weeks...I suspect that the very nature of repositioning vinyl or air release vinyl does not allow enough glue to get to the porous surface of latex, I think that if they had to use regular vinyl then the problem would'nt have happened... as the regular letters stuck fine.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Neil ....... what kind of paint? Some acrylics have a lot of teflon so they're easy to wash. Combine that with a low-gloss & you're going to have a problem. I would think that the issue would be with the paint moreso than the vinyl, although the cheap vinyl with the aggressive adhesive would likely overcome this. There are some paints that I can't get Avery paintmask to stick to long enough to do what I need to do. I've never had a problem with ControlTac over Porter gloss.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 472 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Any additional pictures that show the HVAC system in relation to the graphics that are failing?
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Try using the heat gun. This should fix it.. however, I'm wondering... when you got the graphics could you still smell the ink from the printer? If so, was the finished print laminated as well? If the print company laminated the print before it was fully dry, this could damage the adhesive. I don't think shrinking would be the problem, control tack usually stays in good form on a flat surface. Hmm.. I would try a heat gun.
posted
The prints were laminated, but as far as them being cured I don't know... but I really don't think that was an issue. I just think that it's a compatibility problem, the HVAC System is not a problem either as the problem is all over the area, again the cheap 3 mil vinyl is fine... Thanks...but I'll listen to any suggestions.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I would try Curtis' suggestion about the heat. If that doesn't do it, I would notify the company that supplied the graphics.
It may be worth your time to get a sample of the wall paint and contact 3M. It might be a good idea to get them to do the testing for you so you can avoid the issue in the future.
posted
Hiya Neil, I think you're on the right track when you say Controltac on a rough wall. However, Roger mentions Teflon which could be another issue.
I would do as the others suggested and try heat with a roller or brayer to get the material to "conform" better to the textured surface.
If that doesn't work, it would be time to start a tab for the contractor that hired you to pay for any extra services you provide.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just another opinion here, I'm no expert with paints and sufaces. My guess it's not the control tac. I have a large wall in the shop covered with prints (my Mimaki JV3) that are all peeling as depicted above. It makes no difference as to control tac, any HP white, White Translucent or clear. They all peel up on a painted piece of drywall.
My belief is that it's in the printing itself, my printer really heats up the vinyl and I think it changes the properies of the adhesive or the vinyl but I'm not a chemist.
I've put up pieces of unprinted vinyls and no peeling at all.
Just my 2 Cents.
-------------------- Bob Cornett Omaha Neon Sign Co Omaha, NE Posts: 21 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I already contacted the sign company, and they are asking me for advice, here's a Sign Company in Toronto and they don't have an answer? I believe the cause is 3m Control tac Vinyl. Sure even on Vehicles they have issues in seams and such. Now they recommend using a special adhesive activator or glue that you brush on into the seams. Other vinyls you don't do that... Arlon's Glue is much stronger in my experience... 3M is Not as good as it states it is. Just my opinion. But if I can get them to pay more, I'll try the heat.
Thanks for all your comments, it is appreciated.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I run into this at the mall. i can stick some oracal vinyl on a wall and it stays BUT them i can order some laminated decals and they just fall off. THE NEXT STEP would be for you to see if reg vinyl will stick to the paint and if it does reorder those decals WITHOUT lamination
ive had to do that. i use eggshell paint at mall.
im thinking laminated prints are more rigid and wont take as good as non for some reason, but it fixed my problem. do that vinyl test first
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I believe Mark hit the nail on the head - 3M Controltac has thousands of glass bubbles, apply fairly lightly and the vinyl is repositionable, the bubbles have to explode releasing the pressure activated adhesive which is more aggressive.
-------------------- Lori Wilcox Tabby Ink Hinton, Alberta Canada Ph 780-865-4305 Posts: 306 | From: Hinton, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Control Tac is a great product. But perhaps not the premium product for this application. If not too late, I'd contact your local 3m tech rep. and have them walk you through an adhesion test with their recommended films for the surface and paint treatment. At the very least, someone should be picking up the warranty tab on this one IF it was done according to developed process. Delaying opening of retail franchises can get expensive, hope this is working out.
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
See the latest article by: Rob Ivers, in the "Signs of the Times" magazine or maybe the article would be on the ST website. It's all about inks penetrating adhesives because the print has not dried long enough as well as many other tips. Apparently the inks migrate to the adhesives and melt it which reduces adhesion. Heat, it says, in capsulized locations can also melt adhesive.
I am not a printer and this is all I have to offer because I read factual information.
Good Luck
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
print the stickers on regular vinyl, I guess? What a mess!!! shoulda just stuck a cheapo vinyl background on and then stuck the 3m to that. Course, thermal printers will print to cheapo vinyl just fine, or they used to when I was doing that.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm convinced that the cheaper vinyl would have worked better, there is no way that we did'nt apply enough pressure, we would have dented the wall had we applied more pressure...
Thanks again, so far the fix I did is holding.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
[/IMG] 
[/IMG]
[/IMG] 
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
Any additional pictures that show the HVAC system in relation to the graphics that are failing?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic