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Up to now I have done pretty standard signs, mount on 4x4 or 6x6 posts etc. But now I have a customer wanting a sign that requires some thought with how we mount it. The sign regulations state that he can't put up a permanent sign at the side of the road (state owned). However, he can hang one over the right of way So our thoughts are to put up a 6x6 by his fence and then use brackets to hold up the sign. It needs to be perpendicular to the road though so the brackets will only come off one side (I envision them top and bottom for strength.) Very important issue - this is one WINDY area!!! (his flag pole snapped in 2 a couple years ago.) So ... any advice on what would be the best material to use for the sign? Dibond? 2 sides on an interior frame? or HDU on a Dibond backer? What would be the maximum size (we'd like to get as big as 4'x8' if possible?) Advice on designing brackets for this??? Thank you!!!
[ June 22, 2009, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Karen M Stanley ]
-------------------- Karen Stanley Signs & Wonders Amherst, VA Posts: 136 | From: Amherst, VA | Registered: Jan 2007
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You need a pole/poles and sufficient foundation which can handle the typical windload in your area. There is a book available from ST Publications entitled. "Sign Structures and Foundations" with mathematical formulas and alot of information to help you determine what you need. I live in a hurricane zone, where a typical 4x8 sign a few feet off the ground would need to be capable of sustaining a 110 mph windload of at least 844 lbs. But even a thunderstorm can generate some pretty high winds.
[ June 22, 2009, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I think, Karen, given the size of the sign, the wind, and that it's only one pole...I'd think seriously about using a 6" steel pole. I'd do a couple of ornamental-type right angles coming out and bolt the sign between them. You may even consider welding a couple of 3" angles to the pole at intervals between the brackets and bolting to the vertical part of the sign frame itself.
I think framed Dibond will be fine.
That should give you a pretty bulletproof job, and one that should be releatively attractive as well. Good luck.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Thankyou gentlemen, some good info... though the math part scares me Wayne I do like the steel pole idea, do you have to use a different type primer on steel than what we use on wood?
-------------------- Karen Stanley Signs & Wonders Amherst, VA Posts: 136 | From: Amherst, VA | Registered: Jan 2007
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It's very simple math. nothing to be frightened of. Even if you don't need it for this job, the book would be helpful to you in the future.
After a thorough cleaning, I usually prime steel with something like "Extend". It converts rust so it doesn't bubble up through the paint later. But someone else might have better advice on that....maybe POR15?
[ June 23, 2009, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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You just need a decent metal primer, Karen. The Extend works good; Rustoleum makes a decent one. ANy of the major paint manufacturers offers them.
I would think a hole about 24 inches in diameter and 4 feet deep would be more than enough for the concrete. I'd drill a few sets of 1/2" holes all the way thru the pipe starting about 6 in. up from the bottom and 6 in. apart. Put some 10 or 12 inch pieces of allthread thru them and bolt to the pole. This will eliminate any chance of the pole rotating with the sign, in the wind.
Or you could just weld some pieces of angle iron to the lower end of the pole...anything sticking out to keep it from turning.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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what is allthread?? and where might I get it? For that matter where do i get a steel post? :)Lowes?? Boy I've learnt all sorts of things the last 2 weeks !!
-------------------- Karen Stanley Signs & Wonders Amherst, VA Posts: 136 | From: Amherst, VA | Registered: Jan 2007
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Allthread is a solid steel rod that has threads (like a bolt) running the whole length of it. You can get it at most hardware stores, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. Comes in various sizes. Is cheaper than buying real long bolts in this case. Most standard rods come in 3 foot and 5 foot lengths. You can cut the 3 ft. into three 12 inch pieces.
But like I said, you can use anything that will fasten to the lower part of the pole by bolting or welding, to keep the pole from rotating. There is a good chance that it won't rotate anyway; this is a precaution. It's much easier to fix the problem before it happens than after.
Most likely, your hardware store guy can tell you where to buy steel pipe from. If you live in a larger town, you probably have a steel supply house there. 6 inch with about 1/4 in. wall will be fine. Most suppliers sell it by the foot. Keep in mind it will be heavy, so take help. You're probably going to need 16 or 17 feet (4 feet in ground, 4 feet at least, to bottom of sign, and 8 or more feet to the top). Isn't this fun?
I know using steel pipe is going to be more of a hassle; but keep in mind that if you were to use a 16 foot 6 X 6 (wood), with the weight of the sign, it would bow over in not too long a time.
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Karen Steel suppliers may be found in your local phone book, most will deliver to your door in length's required.
I would recommend 6" square tubing .250 wall thickness. Weight would be 19.02 pounds per foot.
Would also suggest using 3" square tube .1875 wall thickness. Two pieces passing thru 6x6 and welded on both sides forming a letter F, mounting your substrate to those out board stringers.
You realy should get that book from signs of the times, worth it's weight. Sign Structures & Foundations by Peter B. Horsley.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boy this place is a mine of information - THANK YOU!! And I have taken your advice to heart... One "Sign Structures & Foundations" book is on the way Len, when you say 6" square tubing do you mean for the pole? Why square and not round? (It would kind of fit my perceived design better, just wondering...) Oh yes... I just read it again, the 6": is the pole, the 3" are the outboard stringers... Would I need to drill the holes in and put the allthread through like in Dale's plan?? Dale - are you sure we have to go 4 ft in the ground?? That part doesn't sound so good - we're talking about a mountain top - lots of ROCK!! Oh well, build up hubby's muscles, eh? thanks again, Karen
-------------------- Karen Stanley Signs & Wonders Amherst, VA Posts: 136 | From: Amherst, VA | Registered: Jan 2007
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Karen, the square tubing won't rotate, so you won't have to do any drilling. Some people like it better, aesthetic-wise. (looks more like a 6 X 6 post) I didn't mention it because some steel pipe companies don't carry it, and it's usually more expensive. For your purpose, either round or square will be more than strong enough.
The fact that you're going into rock will give you a much more solid foundation, but I'd still go down at least 3 to 3 1/2 feet minimum, with concrete, 24 in. wide. I know it's no fun digging in stuff like this; I've done it. But just don't take too many shortcuts.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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I would find a local steel fabricator, draw up what you're looking for and have them spec the material. You can do either round or square. They can weld a piece of angle on the cross bars and post for bolting the panel (I'd use .5" alumaply). While you're with the steel fabricator see if they can paint it, deliver it and set it in a hole you have ready for it. It's gonna be heavy. As for the hole, you need to get below frost line, but that's a lot of sign and post to support, so you can go wider instead of deeper if you have too.
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Karen I see Dale answered most of your questions that you asked regarding my post. I would strongly recommend that you set post 4' in concrete, as a 4' x 8', 32sq. ft. sign area mounted as a flag mount over a right away will create much wind load. Be safe, not sorry.
Check the information in the book when you receive it, will make for safer installations and keep the law suits away.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Well, this is certainly a lot to think over... I believe I might be passing the book over to hubby to get his brain around, while I stick to the sign part I do thank you very much for all your help though. There is no other way I could have learnt all this! And don't worry - I don't intend cutting corners just to save a bit... I am a firm believer in doing it right or not at all...at least for a customer Thanks again.
-------------------- Karen Stanley Signs & Wonders Amherst, VA Posts: 136 | From: Amherst, VA | Registered: Jan 2007
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So our thoughts are to put up a 6x6 by his fence and then use brackets to hold up the sign. It needs to be perpendicular to the road though so the brackets will only come off one side (I envision them top and bottom for strength.)
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I do like the steel pole idea, do you have to use a different type primer on steel than what we use on wood?
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