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Hi! Let me start by introducing myself. My name's Marge Cameron & I am the owner of Cameron Arts, Inc. in Salem, Ohio. I've been a professional artist for over 15 years, mostly airbrushing vehicles & wall murals.
Last month I got a brand new Roland GX-24 plotter for cutting stencils & masking for vehicle artwork. However, as word of it is getting around, I've had 3 requests for vinyl lettering just this week. An acqaintance wants vinyl lettering applied to a glass window in her office door. I've applied vinyl to my own vehicle, but never for someone else. I did a search, but I think what I'm after is so laughably simple that everybody but me already knows it. (Plus I can only scour so many SignCraft issues in a day! LOL!)
This is an interior door, & she wants plain white lettering. So here are my questions... 1. Is there anything special I need to do to prep the glass? I had planned on cleaning it well with rubbing alcohol & wiping it dry. 2. I was going to measure, mark with Stabilo, line it up & hinge tape it to apply it straight (dry application). It's 3 lines, one word each. The glass is 22" wide by 30" tall. Is there some kind of sign maker's rule for spacial borders around the lettering, aside from aesthetic? Like always use at least 1.5 letter widths from the edge, or something like that? I don't want this to scream ameteur should a sign guy walk into her space. If I'm gonna do it, I want to do it right. 3. I will be getting a piece of high tack vinyl from a banner sign guy who does some printing for me. But I want to make sure he gives me what I really need. (I use only low tack Avery products for my masking.) What vinyl would you recommend for this?
I'm half tempted to just farm this out to a real professional, but I'm sure I can handle it if I can only learn how. It feels wierd to be asking what feels like stupid questions after doing another artform for so darn long. So please forgive me, & thank you for your patience with me. Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
No special rules.. as long as it looks good. I would just stick to using normal negative space guidelines used for any sign.
For an interior door, any High Performance vinyl will work just fine. Even intermediate has the holding power you need, it's just a little thicker so HP vinyl looks a little classier, closer to paint. And thinner vinyl won't be picked at as easily or get caught by the cleaning lady as easily. And the amount you'll be using has very little price difference.
Get some Rapid Tac to clean the glass. Alcohol, Fantastic, Windex, they all leave a residue. If you don't have any go here http://www.rapidtac.com/ and Roger will send you a free sample so you can see why everyone is so high on Rapid products.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Marge, Welcome to the Letterville Bullboard.
Dave pretty much summed it up for you.
I never used stabilos or china markers much.
Since you are going to hinge the graphic with masking tape just stick it in place with a couple of pieces of tape at the top corners and then use a tape measure to level and center it.
(I usually drew a center point mark and a level line on the premask before I left the shop.)
Then apply your hinge.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I use RapidTac to clean, then I clean again with RapidPrep. I don't know if anyone mentioned it already but, when applying vinyl to glass, it will be less hassle if you squeegee the letters on dry.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Auhgh, auhgh, thank you, I'd like to thank Dave, Dave, Jon, and wayne! Un hu, and mention a few critical ares (like I havn't allready,right?).
First, Daves right "alcohol, window cleaners, paint solvents, etc." were NOT designed for cleaning prior to film applications. Hence they WILL leave non compatible residues on the substrate, lending themselves to poor bonding and adhesive damage.
Wipeing with anything BUT a cheap kitchen paper towel will also cause bonding problems!
Well, glad you asked, paper towels that say "super absorbant, lint free / static free" Didn't get that way without saturation with chemicals, now when they get wet guess where the chemical residues end up??? right! the substrate!!!
Now lets get to Wayne, you are very detail oriented Wayne, but you MUST use the Rapid Prep first, then go back and clean with Rapid Tac or TacII, and remember"Rapid Prep is NOT always necc., only if you suspect wax-grease-oil-silicon-polymers-etc." Now Wayne, you know why you dry apply when you could wet apply for better results.
Now, Big Thanks to you guys!!!
We have a hotline number for questions- 800-350-7751
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hey there Roger...As you know, I'm no longer active in the business (actually not all that active at all...but golf is beckoning!! )
Any chance you can send me a "sample" bottle of Rapid Prep??? It works great for getting rid of the bug guts on the hood and bumper of the car!!!
I don't need any Tac for final clean-up, still have some on hand!!!
Any consideration (free handouts) would be appreciated.
Seriously, might have to go to the local supplier and pick up a quart bottle of Prep.
BTW Rapid Tac has a pretty good shelf life...Applied a friend's name on his boat a couple of weeks ago...Tac cleaned the surface just fine..applied dry..worked great!!!
I DO have a decent supply of Rapid Remover here..So if anyone reading this needs someone to remove some graphics...send me an e-mail plus airfare and a signed agreement to pay me $100/hr to get the job done!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Hey Dave, I admire your full retirement status !!
As for the Rapid Prep, e-mail your address to mail@rapidtac.com I'll have the office send some Prep plus some "knockout ball cleaner" for your golf balls(and clubs as well) can't guarantee a better score, but you may find a hit feels more solid! We been marketing it for bowling ball cleaner for years.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thank you SO MUCH for all your feedback. Very helpful!!! I got some intermediate vinyl, some transfer tape & a little bottle of mystery application fluid, plus he tossed in some other goodies. I know I have a squeegee floating around here somewhere. He gave me so much extra that I'm gonna do a practice run on my picture window. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. THANKS AGAIN! (Doing a happy dance.)
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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Now, just a sidebar, there are "application fluids" and there are "positioning fluids", Some fluids were designed for vinyl film applications meaning ;giving you cleaning,positioning,adhesive stimulant and transfer tape removal all in one formula.
Soap and water is a positioning fluid not designed for the job .
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hi Marge, Here is one way of approaching a job like this. It requires getting spot on measurements of the glass, but can make your install super simple and take only a few minutes. I hope this helps a little-
1. Create a rectangle in your cutting software that is 22" x 30" (or the exact glass size)
2. Create an "inline" that will serve as your "margins" (example: knock 2" off each side so your inline is 20" x 28" to get a 1" margin etc. don't forget you have to double the size to get it on both sides. ie: a 2" margin means subtract 4", 1" margin subtract 2" and so on.)
3. Layout all of your lettering in a way that is readable and pleasing on your screen
4. In the far corners of your 22" x 30" border line up a 1" square in each corner and delete your outside border and margin line. You should now have all of your lettering, and the 4 squares on your screen
5. Cut it all out at on 24" vinyl, weed it and premask it
6. When you get to the install, line up your 4 corners to the 4 corners of the glass, hinge it down the middle and drop it in one side at a time. The RapidTac will make this a lot easier. (You will have to notch out some premask at the top and bottom so your masking tape has room to stick to the glass.)
You can also use this method on areas larger than your 24" material, by breaking it in half. So, if your glass height was 36" lets say, you cut the top half of the graphic, line up the top 2 squares and apply, then the bottom half. It doesn't work if you have full coverage graphics, but for most anything else you can make this work.
posted
Orrr, set it up on your machine with proper dimencions, tape with application tape (mid tac) go to job site,measure, mark,clean glass two times with Rapid TacII and cheap kitchen paper towel, spray again (wet well) with TacII,lay it up there,align to marks on glass, squeegee FIRMLY from center out, wait 90 seconds,spray trans tape, wait 60 seconds, pull off at 45 degree angle, wipe job clean and dry, collect money, all in 6 minutes(apply time) not counting computor or comute time.
Easy stuff, no borders,blocks,hinges, yet, perfect alignment, no bubbles !!!
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Marge, I am over in Wooster and get to Salem on occasion as Custom Cut Aluminum in Salem is a supplier for me. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Also, just as stated above, Prep, Tac, level line up marks, hinge, and squeegee.
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Thanks, everyone! After all this fantastic input, I'm confident I can handle this. I appreciate everything you've shared with me.
The mystery fluid is actual application fluid, since he told me about spraying the adhesive side of the vinyl prior to application & the back of the transfer tape prior to removal. He said it was "similar to Rapid Tac". The bottle is hand-marked XFEA Fluid, but I checked the Rapid Tac site & found Great Lake Graphic Supply to be a distributor. I will scoot over there for more vinyl & some Rapid Tac II & Rapid Prep for the next job. (And there's already a next job.)
Sean & Roger, thank you so much for the detailed steps! There's always more than one way to skin a cat, so I will save both your suggestions for future reference.
Dana, I am practically within walking distance from Custom Cut. I get my aluminum panels for airbrushing & panel swaps from there. I'm an imported wife from out-of-state, so I haven't gotten to Wooster yet. Thanks for the offer of help! (Love your sig line, BTW! Too funny!)
Everything's ready for Monday's installation. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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Hi Marge, and welcome. I'm sure you've received all the necessary information to insure you'll do a good job on anything you do down the road. There's a wealth of info here.
Roger, along with your other fine products I've used, I've been very satisfied with it, and have used up most all the Rapid Clear you sent me. Is it still available? None of my suppliers carry it. It's the best cleaner for eyeglasses or for smudges on acrylics I've ever used.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Thanks again! All VERY helpful info! You guys are the best!
Oh, I left out an important newbie Q. I'm sure you guys are sick to death of hearing this one, but I have no idea what is a reasonable rate for this kind of stuff. For my airbrushing, I charge cost of materials plus 10%, plus $45/hr. But from absolute start to finish, including face time with the client, I've got 2 hours into this. That includes font searches! It took only a few minutes to lay it out, cut it, measure & piece together, & will only take a few more to put it up, I'm sure, so $100 seems like waaaaay too much to me. (Compared to what $100 of airbrushing gets. But thank god I've used a similar process for bike work before, cuz that helped with my speed.) I used 4 ft of 6" wide white high gloss intermediate vinyl & two pieces of 12" x 20" 4050-RLA Conform R tape I was given, but don't know what that's worth because I forced $30 on my printer guy for all the goodies he tried to give me for free.
So, given my inexperience at glass vinyl, what's a fair rate for this job? When I airbrush, I normally quote, take a 50% deposit, THEN do the work, then recieve payment in full upon delivery. But these were different circumstances. I'm just supposed to leave an invoice after installation. What should I charge? HELP!
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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Marge, Here is a cut vinyl price calculator that uses the figures from the Sign Writer's guide. You can adjust a little for your area, but this will give you what fair market value is somewhat. http://restorationsigns.com/calc.html
posted
Hi there Marge, Fancy seeing you here! You have found another one of the best Groups of people on the planet. If your looking for Sign related knowledge, your in the right place.
Have fun, and I'll see you around the Forum. Karman
Great to see you! I was wondering if I'd bump into any familiar faces here. Thanks for the welcome. I've lurked here on & off over the years & recommended this place many times to others. Since I've definitely gotten more than $50 of good advice, it was high time to sign up.
Take care & see you around!
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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Just to let you guys know, the lettering was installed this morning. All things considered, it went pretty smoothly. I know that every glass door I go through from now on, I'm looking at the back side of any vinyl lettering they have! LOL!
Things I learned today: 1. Nothing is as easy as it sounds the first time! 2. You can never have too many registration marks. 3. Expect people to actually use the door while you're there. 4. Wear a shirt or something with your business name across the back. 5. Application fluid makes a fine perfume. 6. It would've been an exercise in frustration & embarrassment had I not been well-armed with all the great advice from here!
THANK YOU! You guys saved my patootie.
Here are 2 pics. Hope it doesn't look too terrible to you seasoned pros. Don't be afraid to point anything out to me, good or bad, because that's the best way for me to learn. (Kind of fun to be a newbie at something artistic after all these years.)
-------------------- Marge Cameron Cameron Arts, Inc. Posts: 56 | From: Salem, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2009
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