posted
I've dealt with this very accomodating customer for a number of years. He's the type that has always accepted advice and followed along and has loved the results.
He now has a partner. This guy is the polar opposite to deal with. He spews out what he wants when he wants it, no if ands or buts and doesn't realize that my magic wand was only a myth. That being pleased with good work also stems from abit of trust and understanding on what can/can't be accomplished within reason.
Here's one small example. "I want my logo in my pms colours. That's it! Doesn't get any simpler than that! Do it that way and make it fit in here! I don't need a proof! Just do it, that's all!" Which actually means, you have to know exactly how I am visualizing the logo, from size, to position, and it must be perfect to my specifications, not according to what a digital printer MAY output upon whim. You have to know how I want it but I don't need a proof because you are a professional so you should just know.
I think you're getting the picture, yes?
I can spell things out to the letter, proof up the ying yang, but some small detail WILL inevitably be overlooked. Some small loophole that I feel will have this project come tumbling down. I can deal with just the one partner, however the rumblings from the other WILL get to me at some point somehow.
My gut tells me to let this one go. I have never turned down work that I felt was a challenge in the past. But this one isn't based on not knowing how to output or walk into an unknown region of expertise. This is about pleasing those that are simply hard to please.
Yes, I could take it on and brush up on my no nonsense negotiating skills. But ultimately, the thought of getting involved in yet another head to head battle of wits wears me thin.
I have a decision to make, indeed. I don't want to make the quote unreasonable, however I see a lot of time being spent soothing over the why's of it all. ALOT.
So I'm here to pick up a few pointers from those of you that run into this ALOT. I don't so if I take it on, I'd like to be well prepared.
posted
This reminds me of something I have observed with my dad's little dogs. The male dog has to put his mark on everything. If one of the females does her business out in the yard, the male has to track down that spot and put his mark on it.
Some people are like that. No matter what you do, they always have to put their mark on it. One of my co-workers at a previous job used to leave an obvious mistake in everything he did, so the boss could correct it. That way the boss felt satisfied and didn't have to try so hard to find something he could change.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
I would let him know that a Proof is required before anything goes into production. Even test print the colors for him and add that into the final quote. I think we have all had our share of these type customers.
Good Luck!
-------------------- Theresa N. Hoying Visual Concepts 130 South Lester Avenue Sidney, Ohio 45365 937.492.2110 Posts: 176 | From: Sidney, Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
if he wont accept proof and appove i wouldnt touch it because you know you'll hear:
"that not the red i was wanting, as a matter of fact I dont like red"
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Years ago I had a regular customer that wanted me to letter his van. He had an existing logo (radio station) and said, "Just make it look good - do whatever you think is best." When he came to pick up the van he said that the logo wasn't big enough.
We had a lengthy discussion on what "Do whatever you think is best" means. I ended up redoing the van to his exact measurements with the condition that he not bring me anymore work unless he had exact specifications. Later I found out that he didn't have the authority to tell me what he did and that his boss was putting the pressure on him to make the changes.
I've not done any more work for him or the station.
I've found that life is just to short to deal with a lot of hassle like that. I'll provide a layout and color specs on just about anything now so that all of us are on the same page. I've heard "That's not what I had in mind" too many times when it was preceeded by "I trust you - just do whatever you like".
Donna, you're the professional. Do it your way.
Recently I had a new business move into our area, just a few doors down from me. He had an existing logo (red and black) and wanted me to put it on his window. I told him that what he wanted was too small and that red and black would not show up on his window. His wife agreed, but he was the boss and wanted it done exactly like he said. So, we did it exactly like he said and you can't read it. The wife's reaction was..."See! He told you" but the husband stated it was exactly what he wanted. I got paid and now have an example of how not to do window lettering for my workshops.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Donna, it also comes down to "how busy are you?" and "Do you actually NEED this job to survive at the moment?"
quote:"Just make it look good - do whatever you think is best."
I had two customers try those words on me a long time ago.
One became a great customer, but I had to really sewat for every $, the other customer I ended up taking to court. In spite of winning, I still didn't get more than half what he owed me. 'Experience' they call it...
Another more recent customer has used those words to both their & our mutual advantage - so, it all depends on the character & principles of the person making the statement, and whether they have a chequebook to back-up or match their request.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I once done a stripe job in south Florida for a gentleman who said he wanted real fine thin lines on his limo. Bottom line is after I finished the job, he came to my shop to pick it up and his first words were' I wanted 2 lines per side and I said, there are 2 lines per side and as he got closer his said, those lines are too thin and I said yup, that will be $175 and put my hand out.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I've had to tell some people that I'm a human being & not a machine, therefore there WILL be small imperfections that are the nature of creating unique hand built signs... and that even the machines I operate are not capable of controlling everything to an unreasonable set of standards when the machines themselves have limitations... I've went on to say that I sense a possible unrealistic expectation, and that while I'm aware that no other shop could guarantee perfection to that degree, if my client doesn't yet realize that, there's a chance some other shop may not realize that either & I would understand if they feel a need to speak to some other shops in pursuit of an elusive level of perfection I am not comfortable with promising. I would follow that with the fact that 99% of my customers are extremely satisfied with my work & those are the type of business relationships I'd want to maintain.
I've also told people who complained about an insignificant flaw on a challenging job that I was sorry they were not satisfied, but I was actually more than satisfied... & I've went on to respond to their demands that I redo a small portion, by telling them that the reason I won't do that is because my first attempt exceeded my expectations & I had no desire to risk losing that by trying to do better... if they are that unhappy, I can remove the work & we could discuss some partial refund... but redoing a job that already represents my best work is not an option.
posted
Some very good responses here especially from Russ and Doug. I'll remember Doug's next time I need it.
Russ, I had to deal with sign committees in the past and did the same thing your co-worker did, put something in the design of the plan that obviously needed addressed so they could make their little impact on the world and correct it. Also they would leave the major parts of the design alone the way my client and I wanted.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Donna, I'd probably speak gently and privately with the partner you have history with and explain that you'd like to keep them as a customer but want to only deal with the personality that works. Seems that in all partnerships each has skilled areas and should remain in their specialty. If it can't work, walk.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
It's about trust and, in this instance, mutual trust. although you may have done work for this company in the past, the person you now have to deal with is for all intents an purposes a new one. Like any other new customer, there's a "feeling out" period.
For what it's worth, I stick to my guns. If I honestly feel the new guy could prove difficult, proofs are a must. It not only avoids problems down the road later, it shows that you're more concerned about doing the job right.
The first word in this business to look out for is "JUST..." It shows the customer is thinking that what they want is not important or not high on their priority list. "Just do it" isn't a slogan for this business. Hopefully, this customer will understand that getting an approval before going into production is JUST what is needed to get it done right....JUST once.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are some customers that trust us because there is a working history proving we understand their business, their objectives, and their customers. There are some people that want lots of "process." Much exchange of dialogue and drawings and transitions. I personally weary with this activity, but find that charging my hourly rate usually helps them to abbreviate the need and get on with the sign.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
You described this person as being "hard to please" - but thats incorrect. This is someone who WANTS to be displeased with the results, so they can excercise the power trip of demanding a redo, or a refund, or whatever. Thats why they give you such contradictory or arbitrary specs to begin with; to trap you into making a "mistake" that they then use as a weapon.
People like this are toxic to everyone they deal with. Like most bullies, they back down in the face of unwavering resistance - but even if you demand better specs, and do the job to their approval, next time they'll go elsewhere because being satisfied was NOT THE GOAL for them; the goal was to to be DISSATISFIED - and make you pay for it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a similar customer. He and I worked very well together and he liked everything I did for him. He then got a partner and it was the partner that was then the one calling me. Partner only worried about price. The clincher was when he called for a price to redo a Snap On tools truck they bought. He wanted Snap On decals removed and their stuff put on. I quoted him and he said someone else could do it for half. I told him I couldn't and I never heard from them again (except when a secretary called me by mistake to reorder something). The truck looked like he got what he paid for when it was done by the other guy.
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cam, you just nailed a customer I had about a year ago. He took over the reins of a project I've worked on for years and I could tell the moment he was in the picture, that he wanted me out. BAD. He found the loophole very quickly and did what he wanted to do, attaching his form of reasoning. But still paid me for it was a city type job. But surely flaunted WHY he would not use me anytime soon in the future.
That was my first taste of someone with a real mission in mind. It was an eye opener. Seems I've been pretty fortunate over the years.
posted
Donna, customers like this are dangerous. I'd let it go. If you decide to take the job, then you should be alright as long as you insist on a proof, get signed off at every step of the way, and especially have a disclaimer about the color shifting!
Good luck --
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, this guy is ready for a fight when you get the job done. He is setting you up to take you down. Ive dealt with this type a couple times before, and it always ends up bad. He probably has the idea that you being a woman, will be easy to jump on you after you've done the job. Me, I would give the guy a long explanation of how I do business, ie proofs ,etc. and if he didnt want to do it that way, I'd tell him its been nice. Its not worth the stress.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's Bill's advice from an old post, that we use on a REGULAR basis! "When I announced I was going into business, my dad told me I should know the secret of the "clamp" trick.
When he was a young machine designer he worked under an engineer who was extremely hard to please. Dad was determined to do his best and please this guy -- even taking work home until he thought it was right. On one project they were working on a machine that had converyor belt on it. The engineer reviewed my dad's blueprint and said, "Are you done, Bill?" Dad said he was, so the engineer said, "Well I think you need to put a clamp over here." My dad, utterly frustrated said, "I've been over and over these plans and I assure you we don't need a clamp there."
The engineer said, "I know that and you know that, but this customer we're working with here is anal as hell and he'll find something wrong no matter what. So we'll put this clamp over here in a place that's easy to spot and easy to erase. Then he'll spot the flaw, suggest a correction and get his jollies.
To Dad's amazement the customer scanned the plans until he spotted the unnecessary clamp and his eyes lit up. He asked Dad if he was done. Dad said he was. Then he said, "Well I think you did an admirable job here, young man, but do you think we really need a clamp over here." Dad looked at the engineer and the engineer said, "You know, I don't think we need a clamp there, and we could probably save a bunch, considering how many machines we're making. Let's take that clamp out.
The customer puffed out his chest and said, "Very well then, proceed with the plan minus the clamp." Before the customer made his way out the building, Dad received a wink from the engineer, grabbed the eraser, and low and behold that clamp was gone.
We use the clamp trick from time to time, and you'll need to too. When we get an anal customer like that, Jane will look at me and I'll look at her and will both say at the same time, "CLAMP TRICK!" This is usually leaving a phone number out of the design or maybe even misspelling a word on a sketch if a big enough clamp is needed.
Good luck, though, I do think this is one of the greatest businesses. Not the greatest money, but the satisfaction you'll have from doing a job-well-done, you can't put a price on."
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well I should have read this post before posting my own story. Except my customer is not anal or stuffy or anything else that is at least understandable on some level. My customer is simply incapable of processing a reasoned and carefully explained position. I very strongly suspect that she has some sort of personality disorder, and how she's going to manage to stay in business without heavy subsidization from somewhere is beyond me.
Good luck, Donna, and please keep us posted.
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jane, - I love the CLAMP story. But awfully hard for a perfectionist sign artist to purposely make a mistake when my whole life I have endeavored to perfection nirvana!
posted
Well the trick is you have to make it glaringly obvious and an easily changed item! That is a fun challenge in itself! Like I say we use it all the time and it works so well. They feel so justified in correcting us and we apologize so humblily for our glaring error....
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Eeeuw -Donna . . . I've met a few stinkers exactly like that guy! Never fear Gal. Just put it right back on him! I do it this way: I let 'em rant as I ask them the basic questions (which a normal customer would answer properly) and when the difficult customer has hung himself with the rope of 'control & ridiculous expectations without communication', I lower-the-boom on him telling what I EXPECT from a customer and that it is MY POLICY to ask as many questions as needed to gain as much clarity as possible in order to avoid any customer being unhappy with anything since we both know exactly what we're all doing in the first place. This usually makes them 'sit up and look around', ie; realize coomunication dissolves potential problems, and lack thereof defines them. If such an approach does not illicit a more cooperative response from such a customer, I smile and very politely tell them to find another shop (to abuse) and take my leave. Often, at that point, they will change their tune and begin to understand the process more clearly, but if not, adios. This has nothing to do with race or gender dynamics, or even control issues. Arrogant & rude people come in all colours and sexes and must be dealt with handily in order to retain one's personal integrity and proper business modus-operandi.
Miss Manners has spoken.
LOL
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Cam, you're exactly right. Some people want to avoid clarity to set you up for failure. That's why asserting one's self and making it crystal-clear for example, how I operate my business and what I expect/demand of myself in conjunction with the customers desires is proven to be important to me when I actually do the foundational work which will avoid any misconceptions whatsoever with the final work.
Have a virtual fail-proof procedure. And don't be intimidated into not following it. To the contrary, 'prove' the procedure, be proud of it, and don't waver from it. I'm no respecter-of-persons when it comes to dealing with customers. They ALL have to endure MY business protocol of they are doing bsuiness with me.
Sometimes we can be guilty of letting customers run our business. I'm fond of telling some customers: I Don't tell you how to handle your customers & operate your business - don't dictate to me how I should do mine.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jane Diaz: Well the trick is you have to make it glaringly obvious and an easily changed item! That is a fun challenge in itself! Like I say we use it all the time and it works so well. They feel so justified in correcting us and we apologize so humblily for our glaring error....
Sometimes when I get some know-it-all looking over my shoulder, I like to conduct a little "experiment" by changing the copy on the screen to another color like 'red' or "orange", right before cutting a vinyl job....
After they have approved the layout, chosen BLUE VINYL and watched me set that up on the plotter, sometimes they will say "It's gonna be blue...isn't it?"
[ May 07, 2009, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic