posted
We found this place at the back end of 96 when we first got the internet, its been, and continues to be a great place to learn, make new friends catch up with old, and enjoy what the work of some very talented people. All this really because of the foresight of the few that kicked the Letterheads movement into gear.
There are quite a few Letterhead related sites, I guess bringing this up is a double edged sword, but I feel really let down, and that's why I wanted to voice some opinion.
Double edged because the site in question has never contributed here as far as I am aware, but got lots of free plugs over the years, even from myself, because if you are happy about something its good to share that too.
I have bought many fonts, many hundred dollars worth from LHF over the years, and been 100% happy with everything, until I tried to buy fonts for $250 last november, I couldn't pay through the site anymore, I contacted them, that was when you could actually talk to somebody on the phone, was helped to fix the order manually.
Got a mail from Chuck Davis a couple of days later saying he had blocked several countries including Sweden, as a result of piracy issues.
I wrote back saying I thought it abit naive to block whole countries, but understand his frustration with piracy, and although I questioned the methods, said that I supported him 100%. I have never shared a LHF or any clipart from any Letterheads.
Anyway after christmas I tried to order more fonts manually by mail, I found that the mail addresses had changed, so used the correct address, I posted on here asking about telephone numbers to LHF, nobody had one that worked, I have 3 different numbers, all are discontinued. I know that Chuck saw that post because I spoke with people on the phone and he had been in touch with them.
I have tried contact through the site over 10 emails, all courteous and friendly, pleading with him to supply me the fonts I need both new and old.
Not one reply, nothing, thats what makes it abit sad. People often write on here or vent about customers and the way they are, we all know how important our customers are, I was a customer of LHF, and a good one at that, and that's the thanks you get for good honest support over the years.....it sucks big time. If it were allowed I would express myself with a whole load of expletives at this point.
The site that he was concerned about is the largest torrent tracker or whatever it does in the world, it has 20,000,000 users, in 2006 it was raided by Police here but as they only link people or however it works they could not be prosecuted, they had no illegal files on their servers, the servers were then moved from Swedish territory, I believe they are all over the world even Australia, they just had a huge court case here with the 4 foundes/owners here, it was frontpage news here for weeks in february.
April 1st 2009 Sweden introduced a new law called IPRED which allows the authorities to go in and check logs for any IP number, and prosecute offenders, I saw on the news last week they had arrested a gang responsible for pirating new films. We now have the strictest piracy laws in Europe, the Swedish government went further that the EU parliament had proposed.
I have lived here 20 years, I have never taken a deposit up front, I invoice 99% of all customers, and have had 1 company let me down in all that time, I have friends American/Swedish couples that movedback here from the US because its a save honest place to bring up kids.
But not to buy fonts..... I just renewed my British truck and bus licence, I still have a UK address, I tried to register from there, I guessed as a British passport holder/citizen I could try that way.
My address is in Wales, Chucks site only allows people living in the English counties to register, so if you are like Dave Kynaston (he doesn't need to buy fonts as he has his own great style), and live in Wales you can't register, same in Scotland, which is strange.
I sent a mail to all the LHF designers I had addresses for or called them up.
I guess as Chucks wrath is unpredictable, its hard to speak out. We have a right to our opinions, and they can differ, but you can still be supportive even if your feelings differ.
I can't buy the fonts directly from the designers as they are contracted to Chuck. Many letterheads have taken time to produce some great fonts, they want to sell them, and I have been able to buy them and just want to be able to carry on, as before, many here know me from here and real life, maybe it should not be taken personally.....and I try not too until I think of a font that might fit a particular job here.
I'll move on with a bad taste in the mouth, and a lost respect for Chuck, and that's like a 360 degree turn on how I felt a few months ago. I still try to login from time to time to see if things have changed but no "access denied please contact us" yeah right.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think it is horrible. And the worst part is that these people are contracted to him. I think if I were them I might want to get them for you ANYWAY.....any of you out there listening????
Have you tried to check into the different legalities of this, Henry, that maybe there may be a loophole?
Shame on you, Chuck. We are all watching this post, even if none are posting, we are all reading it. You don't want to hurt your business do you? Help out your supporter here!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Hi Henry, I did receive your e-mail to designers at LHF and although I am working on things for Chuck I'm not yet(at this point anyway)a contributor. I have to add in defense of all that has been said in this,as well as other posts, that piracy has become a huge problem for software engineers as well as the wee people doing simple things like fonts etc. Chuck has been honourable in his dealings with everyone I know although to your case I can't speak specifically as I know little of all this. I'm hesitant to admit that I have no computers or any of the other stuff at my shop. All this is to say I'm sure there is a logical answer to your dilemma and hope the folks governing us all solve these problems. I did hear a talk show on the CBC this month past discussing this whole matter and hope that all this resolves it'self in due course. I'm sure the designers at LHF (as well as Chuck) wish you would buy much more of their work.
posted
It does sound kind of ridiculous. He knows who you are. I understand about piracy issues and know that can be a big problem. But I think business lost by lack of customer service is worse.
What is the problem with allowing you to pay over the phone by credit card and sending the fonts to you by email or cd?
I've seen some of their tactics over piracy that I thought were a bit offensive, and I emailed them and told them as much. But I can also understand your persistance. The fonts and designers are so amazing, and add so much enhancement to a design, it's really hard to make a statement by just not purchasing them. Not only that, but it would hurt the designers' income as well, and many of them are our friends and aquaintances here.
It's sad. I still purchase from there and love the fonts, but I feel we're between a rock and a hard spot.
Edited for typos
[ April 06, 2009, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Tracie Johnson ]
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I understand Chuck's issue with piracy. It must be frustrating as hell to see all your hard work being given away by people who think its okay to steal.
That said, the idea of refusing to sell to individuals because of the country they live in is rather silly and accomplishes little. Chuck is already tagging every font sold. So if a font ends up on the net, its going to be pretty easy for him to track down the original owner. We already know he's done that one time already.
There is no excuse for Chuck not to sell to Henry. Henry is already very well known to us and is therefore very unlikely to pirate LHF fonts compared to some unknown individual in Russia or China.
Chuck's server got hacked. A bunch of his work ended up on the net and he and the designers lost a lot of potential income because of it.
IMHO, because of some buttholes who thought it would be cool to steal and because Chuck had some pretty crappy security, Henry gets punished. It sucks and its wrong.
posted
Henry, I hate it for you. I'm in the same boat because I would love to spend a lot of money buying great fonts that were made by my friends here, but absolutely refuse to buy from LHF because of the way their customers get treated. That includes you and plenty of others. I know a lot of other people who feel this way also.
There are hundreds of companies that have software a hell of a lot more valuable than those fonts that find a nice balance between security and being a complete ass to good customers... I wish LHF would get there so I could feel good about doing business with them.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Canada calling, any 'Canadians' having trouble?.....Henry, I am sorry to hear of this dilemna as I have recently spent a lot of time looking at all the available and very beautiful fonts from all the talented artists, trying to decide which ones I should purchase. I guess I will wait a little longer to hear the outcome to this post before I submit my order.
-------------------- Susan Banasky Source Signs Nanaimo, British Columbia sourcesigns@shaw.ca
When in need....go directly to the "Source"!
Proud Supporter of this "Knowledge Network"! Posts: 1323 | From: Nanaimo, B.C. Canada | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Their fonts are awesome, I think we all agree on that, but I am with the majority here. I'm sure they are frustrated with piracy issues etc. but if that's part of their business (which it is) then they shouldn't be bashing their customers, they should be figuring out how to address it. The internet is the Wild West, and I'm sure they are having their share of challenges, but they are also reaping the rewards of having a worldwide market that they can sell their product to automated if they wish. Again, I love their stuff but the paranoia is costing them more I'll bet in alienating people than piracy may have. Most of us are pretty straight up and would purchase their stuff to support them and keep them going even if there were some pirate stuff floating around.
Seriously, it's hard to understand how ridiculing customers is a good marketing ploy. I don't get my T-shirts either, cause I refused to stand back and allow him to use my name to bash Letterville. I boycotted for a while, but eventually went back, but I definitely don't drop the money there that I would have if I had been treated with any respect. I've bought a few fonts that my friends have designed in the past few years.
I was pretty much over it until the $1000 font fiasco hit. In my opinion that was handled pathetically. Henry's dillema just sours the situation even more.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
That's some story in your link there, Kelly. Of course, it seems on a past occasion when customers were dissatisfied, they decided to further ridicule them by handling it with satire. Interesting...
Any way that $1000 dollar font story is the one that I referred to. It really ruffled my feathers. It seemed they decided to punish the paying customers to somehow get back at the dishonest non-customers. In the long run, I thought that would only hurt the designer.
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I sent LHF's an email last week and haven't heard anything back. It was a question about a bunch of fonts I wanted to buy. They must be to busy to answer my email, so I gave up and moved on to something else.
-------------------- Cody Reich Columbia Signs Posts: 300 | From: Vancouver, WA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Looks to me like complaining on this BB will never make any cream with the font house. For some reason they do not like this site and maybe even the members too...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Even if you take a thoroughly impartial point-of-view, the communication breakdown/refusal defies understanding to my simple mind.
Whether or not Henry is a contributor here, and whether or not Chuck likes this place, does not have anything to do with all the silence and lack of communication Henry's experienced so far.
He only broke the news of his problems here AFTER he had tried other avenues to solve his dilemma.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Well they must like the members, I just got an email from them this morning. Ido think it is a shame but not knowing the whole story I cannot comment.
I will say this was at the bottom of the email.
Letterhead Fonts is available from 8am - 6pm Mon-Fri. All support issues during business hours are addressed in 1 hour or less-- guaranteed! Please do not reply to this e-mail. Instead contact us through the site at http://www.letterheadfonts.com/contact/index2.php
Please let us know if there is anything we can assist you with. We're happy to help!
Thanks, Denise
Denise Bayers Letterhead Fonts
Maybe you can try contacting Denise instead of Chuck.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am aware of that, I have filled in their online support, and where they always used to respond pre nov 2008, they no longer do.
I wont write the full email addresses to save them whatever it is that searches those things out on the net, but I have tried on many occasions often sending the same mail to 3 different addresses like chuckdavis09@ etc etc and sales09@ etc etc and support09@ etc etc, and like I say the online contact.
I have been civil and polite in ALL correspondence have saved all of them too. I have never ever gone to so much trouble to buy something legally.
The irony is until Chuck brought it to my attention I had no idea his fonts were floating around the net, and would have never thought about even looking for them, always thought that those that most us know from here or meets, and in many cases are friends should benefit, for their efforts.
Its weird putting things in proportion these are $39 fonts its not national security.
I'm asking to buy some new and some that are older and probably almost certainly available to download from some dodgy site.
After this I'm not that bothered about Chuck but want the guys that have made the effort, to get paid.
I think I have over 60 LHF fonts, at today's prices that's over $2000 nice way to treat a regular customer.
There are some great type foundries on the net, who offer a great service, just a shame that people like Dave Correl etc don't sell their fonts through alternative sites.
Good to be in a world where we have freedom of choice.
I would gladly print my reply to Chucks mail offering me to download manually, which he hasn't kept too.
I basically said in that mail that I was abit shocked he'd banned a whole country, and especially one like Sweden, I thought it was naive.
Although I may not have agreed with his actions, I made it very clear I had the utmost respect for what he was trying to do, and could understand his frustrations in general but not, me not being able to download as I had always done. Its OK in Germany, and the UK and a few other countries.
I wanted people to be aware of the crappy way I feel I have been treated by them, and for those that supply him with fonts in the Letterheads name to know that its a crock of crap trying to do things honestly.
Maybe we could have a font server here where people could buy from each other, alot of us have been in touch here for well over 10-12 years...its a weird situation.
I have never told him to F*** off or anything like that, or shared any fonts, so its not for those reasons.
posted
maybe if he banned the whole country then his company does not even see your emails..
Sorry to see you feeling this way. Unexplained mistreatment makes us wonder when it happens.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Look I can definitely see Chuck's perspective on this. Another creator and contributor here and I worked with Chuck to bring down a site that was openly pirating all of our products...I actually did a little covert espionage and "joined" the group to see who was getting swiped from the most.
It didn't take us long, and we managed to bring the guy's site down. Which was a victory, if somewhat Pyrrhic.
In the process, I learned something, and that is that PIRACY will never be stopped. To attempt it, as Chuck has, not only alienates his very niche market, but actually AROUSES the kind of attacks and swipes that he is trying to evade.
"Ya can't put the crap back in the goose."
Look at the recent piracy of the X-men workprint. Over ONE MILLION downloads. If they want it, they'll get it.
I have had to realize that some stuff is just gonna get swiped. No matter how hard, or little you try to prevent it.
At the end of the day, you try to be the best vendor you can be, offer good responses to customers and deliver what you promise. The "reap what you sow", or "Karma" clause is what I fall back on.
Chuck is fighting hornets with a stick. The internet is the nest. Keep whackin'...I wonder what'll happen?
posted
He was aware of the first post I made asking if anybody had a current number, I have also sent mails to as many of his designers, as I could find mail addresses for, I have sent mails from both our company email address and from a gmail account it was the gmail account that recieved a new release blanket mail a week or so ago, and since you mentioned it Curtis and Bob, I just checked my gmail, and I recieved the same mail you got from "Denise" but that just goes to all registered users, nothing more than, I know that Chuck personally contacted somebody on the number post saying that if they helped me it would be illegal.
So Chuck is aware......thats what makes it all the worse. If I had never had an account, or had shared fonts or had not paid or that sort of thing but, punished for where I live,after being a regular customer for many years, when we now have the strongest piracy laws in Europe....time to wake up and see what things are realy like all the way over here.
quote:Originally posted by Bob Rochon: Well they must like the members, I just got an email from them this morning.
As an artist, I understand the frustration of the illegal trading and sharing of art, be it music, photography, illustration, clip art or fonts. Someone recently told me that "It's human nature to cheat" and almost all of us can confess to cheating in some way (taxes maybe). We've all heard the saying "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free."
My mind draws a parallel here, and I feel for the frustration the Shortreeds have to deal with when they don't get the advertising dollar, but the Letterville data bank is harvested for customer contacts or the board is used to promote something on an ongoing basis. It's a fine line to walk between the free sharing of information, which Steve and Barb so stongly believe in, and being walked on, which wears on a person and causes bitterness. I think they do a pretty fine job of dealing with that for the most part.
See, we all see things through our own lens... sometimes it takes looking through anothers eyes to shed some light.
Letterhead Fonts might be getting some bad press here, but on the flip side they are getting some exposure as well.
I know when I had my run in with Letterhead Fonts that I heard some very good things about Chuck from the artists he represents. Every one has a good and bad side to them, but it is hard to understand the way Henry is being ignored. It is to bad that it ends up affecting some really talented and good people in the process.
"Word gets around when you treat your customer's right and people will talk about it. By the same token, word gets around when you treat your customers badly." Chuck Davis - June 2004
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
This whole thing is unfortunate Henry. But why give a company your hard earned money if they haven't earned it? The silence you're receiving is exactly what is being desired from the other end. You are being played. And why, only the player knows his game. It's just not worth it.
It's my hope those creating fonts will simply think twice about whom is representing them.
posted
Wow!! I checked out their new homepage and it's absolutely stunning! I would like to buy some of their fonts sometime, too. I hope this thing is resolved for you soon, Henry.
[ April 09, 2009, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
That's great Wayne, that's the negative thing of bringing it up here, I'm very aware of the fact that Chuck has no interest in supporting this site. That's what I meant in "double edged sword" by bringing the matter up. In many ways I wanted to just let it die and move on which I will. (I'm sorry for Steve and Barb for that)
Theres's something very unique about the whole letterheads movement, something that has meant a great deal to me and brought me some great friends that share much together.
Its because of that, and the really bad way I feel I have been treated, as a customer, that I wanted to bring it to peoples attention, I'm sorry that in doing that I inadvertantly give them an undeserved plug.
Barry your opening comment about seeing Chucks perspective, is exactly how I feel but banning me because of living in Sweden, isn't protecting him from piracy, its just a pain in the arse for me.
He banned Sweden (and me along with that) because of a site called the Piratebay started by 4 Swedes to help like some sort of torrent search engine, whatever it is it does, they don't actually have illegal material on their servers, and their servers are from 2006 no longer based in Sweden, they were also here in court 2 months ago, a case brought by the music and film industry in the US, that we got to see every night on TV, don't know what the outcome was but the piratebay is still going so looks like the expensive lawyers from the film and music branch couldn't stop it, nor can a government here when its not in their soil or under their jurisdiction, what they have done is introduce a new law here 1st April to force ISP providers to dislose IP numbers of major offenders here, so they can be prosecuted, now the strictest laws in Europe.
So I'm banned because of that site, that would have made as much sense as banning everybody in the US a few years ago over Napster. For somebody that is so paranoid about protecting things, I have wondered how his fonts ended up on the net in the first place?
So its not personal, but it is when you have already spent so much money with them, and no reply to anything, and you go back on a promise to help out manually, the only thing I can think about is that I said the decision was naive, I guess that's offended Chuck.
Anyway that's it as far as I'm concerned, move on to better things.
Just as the free advertising on here might generate a few more visitors to Chucks website, I'm sure his actions could also prompt people to look elsewhere for their fonts.
I personally will not use a site like The Pirate Bay, but it was news to me that a place like that even existed. Wikipedia had some interesting info that site. Stated it was the 104 most popular site on the on the web!
posted
Henry--I hope you didn't think I was agreeing with his tactic....I definitely don't. To date, he has: Singled out a known artist for "a crime" he probably didn't commit
Used said crime to raise his rates arbitrarily
created a proprietary software that tags purchasers but does not do a thing to stop piracy.
John Q. Signguy is not likely to go buy a 42 dollar font just so he can give it away for jingles, so tagging "john's" name to a font does nothing but make him, the customer, feel like he's an untrusted, potential criminal. Now here's a question: what if "John" sells his shop, and the clientele with it. Logos created by John with LHF fonts transition too. The name on the tag doesn't change, and lets say the new owner is a tad less scrupulous with the fonts, and lets them somehow get outta the shop and out there to Piratebay, or whatever. Guess who is STILL to blame?
He has also actually gone so far as to place bounties (for info) on the heads of known pirates.
Guess what this does? It creates exactly the atmosphere needed to GET THEM TO TARGET LHF.
A stick v. hornets = a lot of stings.
Yes, it is frustrating, but all the above and banning whole countries is no solution at all.
posted
Okay' Im gonna open my trap. I think that eventully all of those LHF fonts will be copied, tweeked, renamed, and resold on a different website, just like so many other things in this world.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3814 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
"Designer Knockoffs" That's the word I was thinking of. I thouhgt of this because I've been shopping for a formal gown. And in the clothing industry, there are designer knockoffs that you can purchase on-line or in a store.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3814 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I was up at my little farm at the weekend where I just got a new dsl connection, the first thing I did was to log on and visit a couple of sites, bearing in mind the recent prosecution of the Piratebay, jail sentences and large fines I thought Chuck might have seen the light.
I logged on using a new account but using real name and company details, and my paypal account.
I managed to buy 2 fonts that I had been after from Dave Correl, many thanks for them. Today when I came to work there was a receipt from paypal, I logged on to LHF, sent a mail that I was blocked, now again, they havent got back and now the contact formula no longer works for me.
Guess I must have just slipped through with those 2 fonts until I got noticed, still think this is a crazy way to treat people.
Henry,
Thank you for ordering from Letterhead Fonts. We appreciate your business and hope you'll find many creative uses for your new Letterhead Fonts. Please let us know if there is anything we can do for you in the future.
2) Email: Please use the form at: http://www.letterheadfonts.com/contact We answer all email received Monday - Friday between 8am and 6pm PST within 1 hour. Please allow up to 12 hours all other times.
======================================
YOUR ORDER SUMMARY:
Order Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009 Account ID: 8946 Verified Account: Yes
Order Number: 15774 Number of Items: 2 Total Order Amount: $91.00
---------------------------
YOUR BILLING INFO:
Henry Barker
Signcraft AB Taby, Mallslingan 6 18766 SE Phone: 004687326650 Email: henrybarker59(at]gmail.com Payment Type: paypal
IP Address: 81.229.70.36 Host Name: 81-229-70-36-no13.tbcn.telia.com
---------------------------
YOUR ORDER DETAILS:
Signmaker | $42.00 Signkit Script | $49.00
System: PC
Total Order Amount.................. $91.00
Now I no longer have access it just says access denied.
posted
I have had issues too - with customer service, response, support. It seems non-existent.
Seems ironic to me that he's so worried about protecting the fonts he sells from being exploited and costing him sales, yet he doesn't appear to me to be worried about the sales he is losing from his lack of customer support.
I finally had some of my lockout issues resolved with a nice gal that works for him...so I still buy fonts as I need them.
But, I'd buy them direct from the creators in a heartbeat if I had the opportunity - because of the attitude.
First I've heard of some sort of Letterville bashing....what's that all about??
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote: created a proprietary software that tags purchasers but does not do a thing to stop piracy.
IF he is embedding credit card numbers into that software.. I would be VERY leary about that.. I would NOT want my credit card number in some software. No way no how.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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