posted
he is a contractor who has 2 truck and 2 trailers to wrap. Fairly local. But not within my usual area. He was to someone else's shop last summer and got his designs "started" (he says). He did not get anything done. Signmaker was too busy. So he has contacted the signmaker 4 times in the last month. The signmaker still has not done anything but give him ideas. Now he wants to get started, before his season starts. And the customer is really frustrated. So........should I contact the other signmaker and find out what is going on? Or should I just take these ideas and go with them? (as nothing has happened yet) Or should I come up with new ideas and leave the other ideas to the other signmaker for another of his projects? What would you do?
I have enough work now but am always open for more work.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Speak to one or the other- toss a coin about it if needed.
You can't waste too much time thinking about a job that may not happen- you need to know if it's likely to be yours, either by asking the other person, or offering the client something they want.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Your chance to shine with a new design. But you might call the other company to be sure this guy is real and not just another tire kicking, design stealing, price shopper.
-------------------- Bob Moroney The Sign Guy 310 Club Valley Drive Falmouth, MA 02536 508-259-6297 Posts: 216 | From: Falmouth, MA | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Ya know I once got a $10,000 order from a customer who was frustrated with his original sign company because he would not come and fix a letter on a sign that had fallen. Through out the years we have gotton alot of customers because sign companies "blew" them off. I say if you want the work, start fresh and build a good relationship.
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I'd do the job. Just make sure you get a deposit before you start. There are times when for one reason or another a job just isn't a good fit, and I've been guilty myself of procrastinating on a job. Start fresh with the new ideas and make it your own.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
All good comments so far Deri. Since nobody owns a client, I would not worry about the competition. As for working with the other shop's design, I would tread lightly and would prefer to start from scratch.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Something doesn't add up. Why has this sign company provided free "ideas" but are, it seems, ignoring him now? There must be more to the story. I would definitely start by getting a deposit and then using my own ideas. I would make sure that I conveyed the fact, to the customer, that the other shop's ideas are worth something. They belong to them.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
sounds like the other sign company is asking for a deposit before he will go farther. But the client wants to see some design completed first.
Get a deposit with this one...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
We have received several jobs lately because some of the local shops dropped the ball in returning phone calls or not fulfilling promises. My reaction is to never bad mouth the competition but just listen to the customer.
You may never get the real story, so be careful about judging the other guy.
There is no way that I would have anything to do with the ideas presented by the other shop - their designs still belong to them. Require a deposit. Only when money changes hands to you find out whether the client is serious or not.
Your job is to act in a professional manner. After that, everything will take its natural course.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I get a deposit from almost EVERY new customer. It's getting to be that I get deposits even from some established customers who I know might have cash flow problems because I'm not into getting burned because someone went broke. But, yeah...do it. It's not your responsibility to babysit other people's businesses and how they run em' I'd re-design it from scratch, though and only use artwork that the contractor had legal rights to. Of course, not the other company's layout. The ideas? I don't know..who owns ideas unless they're copywritten? But business is business, I'd just do it with my own ideas and not worry about them.
posted
perhaps the other signmaker is frustrated because like wayne said...either they didn't collect a design fee and now they feel used and don't want to spend anymore time on him. or the the other sign company said hey...we charge for design so when you pay we'll produce.
i would get a deposit and start fresh too. it is true...sometimes people just don't match up well. he's probably just as frustrated because he can't express what he wants. i usually try to get as much info on what they do like...colors, fonts etc...and go from there.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
As others have said, I would get a deposit and start moving forward with a new design.
Ideas are not the same as designs in my opinion. For example, if it was for a plumber, and the original sign guy had mentioned the use of a pipe wrench, I wouldn't be afraid to use a pipe wrench in the new design. But, I would avoid using any of the original sketches to come up with the new design.
Sometimes more involved jobs, like wraps, might get bumped to make room for quicker, easier jobs. I've seen it happen, and it has nothing to do with the customer and their ability or willingness to pay.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Thank you everyone for your good advice. There are a lot of good points here to mull over. My first thought was to phone the other signmaker. If I were in his position and about to lose the job I would want to be aware of it. In case they had it booked in. But if he had been contacted 4 times in the last month I think he would have got back to the guy at least if he had booked it. My second thought was to get the customer here in person to feel him out a bit more. I understand where the other signmaker is coming from. I too get lost in work, one job might become delayed or seem forgotten, but generally it is just a matter of timing. And sometimes if I see the job already done its almost a sense of relief. (yeah, I tend to delay the jobs that don't interest me much. I'm bad) I told the client I DO NOT want to see ANYTHING the other signmaker has sent him. Just bring your logo. And I will question him more on where his "ideas" came from.
Yes a deposit is a must.
I also told the customer that I would not drop all the jobs I have on the go now to start his work. I am a one armed paper hanger and could only tackle one job at a time, then the next truck or trailer a few weeks later so I don't upset any current good customers. And he seemed, not upset, but a little, how would you say, indignant possibly. I don't know whether he expected me to drop everything and work on his and his alone or what. So I think I am going to meet this cat in person before I do anything. I need to feel him out a bit more for sure. Thank you everyone. I will let you know when this guy shows up whether he is a tire kicker or a legit frustrated customer. I think my designs could be as good or better anyway. (trying to put my confidence armour on) So yes! He is coming to the right place! Now hopefully he is not an a$$.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
you will almost NEVER get the real story when customers are talking about other sign companies. There is a reason for everything. I and a few sign companies here will "warn" the others of some problem customers. come to find out the problem was not the other company BUT with the customer
i would get a deposit and wouldnt worry about it. IF you knew the other sign guy i would call but if you didnt dont worry bout it
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
This exact thing happened in our shop last week new customer just stopped by cause she seen the sign in are yard she'd been waiting three weeks for a simpl 6"x18" add on sign. simple little job 1 hour tops got it to her within the next day she then emailed me this week for 4x8 mdo sign so I delivered that one today. and they have another one for next week. We dont advetise all work is usually word of mouth I say the other shop is at fault do your best to give them your ideas in these times every job that comes in needs to be taken care of. that means even the truck that pulled in tonight at 4.00pm and I just finished at 7.00 and its gone invoiced and paid d'ont worry to much look after your business keep the customers happy best you can
posted
Okay, okay, remember it's not personal, it's business. They came to for so you may provide a serivce. Just get er done. It's not the same as going out with your girlfriend's boyfriend. Unless he's really good looking.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Hey, most every customer that buys signs has bought from someone else than you at some point.... also, some of your customers you have now may buy from someone else next time, due to convenience, price, or whim.
Sometimes I go to Walmart and sometimes Target.
Just go with it and keep your eyes open for problems like you would with any new customer....
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Quote: "The signmaker still has not done anything but give him ideas"
What does that mean? has the other shop provided art? Are they in the design process?
I would really want to talk to the other shop if for no other reason but to give them insight into their customer, and also find out if they want the job.
MAYBE if the other shop knew the customer was lookin' else where they might be motivated to definitive action. You may also find out the customer is difficult to deal with . . .
MAYBE the shop is swamped and really can't take the job and will tell you to go for it.
MAYBE they will tell you they WANT the job, but still never do anything about it and the customer chases YOU again, and you procede to take and DO the job and then the other shop will hate your guts forever and speak badly about you from them on . . .
See what happens when you really mull over these things?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Deri, you're going to know pretty fast what the past issue was all about. I think you handled it perfectly.
If I personally knew the others at the other sign shop, I'd give them a courtesy call, but mainly to find out the real story about the guy, not necessarily to ask permission to do the job. I'd make that decision once I spoke with them.
If a customer comes to you and you start fresh, it's a new job. No one owns anyone.
However.. do take this as a little red flag. You don't say whether he told the other sign shop that he was looking elsewhere or not for help, so at this point, his level of loyalty is shaky.
I realize business is business, but I personally build my business on loyal customers and friends. Not some dude running from shop to shop looking for the best deal or always in a hurry due to his own late issues.
I hope it works out for you!
[ March 21, 2009, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
posted
Donna, if he has been asking the other shop multiple times to move ahead with this project, it's no wonder he is impatient and not committed to that shop.
I'm not saying that's how it is, but that's how I'm reading the situation. Years ago I was working as a designer, and my boss wanted me to get a sandblasted sign made for one of our customers. I found a local sign maker who said he could do it in 2 or 3 weeks. A few months later we were still waiting, and our customer was getting anxious. They had a deadline coming up and wanted to make sure the sign would be ready.
I called and called that guy, and he kept putting me off. We did finally get the sign in time, and it did look good. BUT, I would never have done business with that guy again. It took nearly 3 months to get the sign made, and if I hadn't been calling him repeatedly, it would never have been done in time. We would have lost our customer in that case and it would have gone over like a lead balloon. He already had half down or we would have gone elsewhere. Loyalty is earned, and he didn't earn any of mine.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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If they *wanted* the work from this guy, they would be on top of taking care of him!
Wraps for 2 trucks and 2 trailers? That's a lot of $$$ to let slip through. The project could be too big for the other shop to handle but they're dragging their feet instead of saying "No." or it could come down to the customer being unreasonable somehow. Who knows?
Red flag it and move cautiously, sounds like you're already on it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I totally agree with Mike.... it would be unlikely that you'll get a straight story from the other shop. It'd be pretty rare that they'd just admit they dropped the ball... so there are only several different scenarios you will get, and they are all useless to you.
1. The other shop will double their efforts in making sure they get the job. Even though they've probably dropped the ball and it's their fault, now they'll call the customer back and offer a lower price, great service, etc.
2. They'll tell you that it's a problem customer and you don't want to deal with them. BUT, you'll have no way of knowing if they are making excuses for themselves, trying to discourage you from working with this customer, or if it's true... therefore useless info to you.
3. They'll say, "Sure, he's a GREAT customer... but go ahead and take him. We were just too busy to call him back!"... which you know is highly unlikely...
So what possible reliable info could you expect to get by calling them, that would outweigh the danger of them now sabotaging YOUR job.... In no other business that I've ever been involved in have I seen advise to call around to competing shops to see if they'd like one more crack at potential customers...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Jantz: In no other business that I've ever been involved in have I seen advise to call around to competing shops to see if they'd like one more crack at potential customers...
That's what I'm saying. What do I care about the other shop? Unless it's a friend of mine, we work together etc. I wouldn't give the other shop a second thought, I'm in business to feed MY family, not to worry about whether the guy across town is taking care of his business or not. He may be a nice guy, good shop, decent person and all that, but it's not my responsibility to find out what happened to him when "his customer" calls me.
All I have to say is I wish you were a competitor in my town, Deri. You obviously have strong ethics and consideration when it comes to your competition. If only more people were like that...
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
A good many customers have no qualms about using the other shop's design or idea, even if they have not been compensated for it. The reason being; either they don't realize it has value or they simply don't care.
Nobody 'owns' a customer. But if a customer brings their business to me, the other sign company's design is hands off. I know what it feels like to have my design or idea ripped off. Part of our job is design...it has VALUE. If we don't RESPECT our time and talents, and those of our competitors, the customer never will.
So the first thing I ask, when a customer brings in a design, is "Who designed this" and the second question is "have they been paid for it"
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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