posted
I've always been a wood man and have only used HDU in the form of carvings that I attach to the wood...I've always finished the HDU just like the wood...prime and paint...the other day I was visiting a local sign shop where they were painting a raw HDU sign without priming...I questioned them and they said HDU didn't need priming...this sounded strange to me so I thought I would ask you guys since I'm doing my first HDU sign...it is a double sided 4.5' x 8'...I want to do it right...what do you guys say.
posted
Rusty, i say yes you need to prime. you will need a high build latex primer like jay cooks primer. now there are some high end paints like Sherwin Williams Duration that claims to be self priming but i have found that you need to prime HDU. also wash your panel off really good to remove the dust berfore priming.
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
I spoke whith Gary Anderson regarding this subject and he tells me he does NOT use primer on his HDU signs. He used acrylic paints exclusively.
We also use acrylic paints, but do use Coastal Enterprises heavy bodied primer on pretty much everything we do. We also use 30 lb Precision board which has virtually no pinholes like the lighter weights. The primer in my view gives a better finish and brighter colors with less work. On many occasions we will add more than one coat of primer to areas like lettering and borders so we can add subtle texture with a brush. Under gold leaf the result is spectatular!
Getting rid of the dust like Chris days is critical... as is using a fan to dry your work after priming but before final finish coats of paint.
Coastal Enterprises has some short videos on their site for training regarding the use of their glues and primers which are worth the time to watch.
Primed and ready to go in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
One of my concerns with not priming HDU is that my experience is it does degrade with UV exposure. For that reason a coat of primer seems like added insurance.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Rusty, HDU is a different animal altogether. It is not porous, like wood and does not "soak up" paint, although it does have the tiny foam bubbles. It just needs something to "bite" into the surface. That's why it's important to wash and/or blow off well to get the dust out of the foam so the paint can grip solidly. I really can't tell any difference between primed and not, so I guess it's up to you.
I do usually always use an acrylic primer. From that point, I'll use either acrylic or oil base.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
i say prime...and i personally like the signfoam primer...its not thick like the others...goes on more like heavy cream. of course this is only personal opinion...but its mine.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The best primer I have used on HDU is Omni MP243 Polyester Primer. It is a two part mixture. I use a squigee to "push it" into the foam. One coat! Can be sprayed, brushed or "pushed"!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Ah...the age old question - To Prime or Not To Prime.
As you have already seen, you will get as many different answers as there are folks who post an answer to your question.
This is what we have been doing for years with no failures:
Since the HDU cannot absorb anything, including the paint film, almost anything will stick to it. Mr. Sawatzky mentioned Gary Anderson, whom I consider to be the guru of all things signs. He does not prime but uses 100% acrylic paints for everything he does and with no failures for the past 20 years or so.
One of the secrets is to use the very best paints available, and to me that means Porter 100% acrylic, although we do use Sherwin Williams Super Paint sometimes.
The only difference that I can see in primer or no primer is the paint finish texture...but nothing to do with the way the paint sticks to the surface. We like a really smooth finish and so we either have to build up several layers of paint or use a high build primer. For the times we want that super smooth finish (signs seen up close or those that require gold leaf) we prime with Coastal Enterprises FSC-88-WB water based primer/filler, applied with a HVLP spray gun.
We do all of our blasting, routing, carving, etc and then apply primer and paint.
So, the simple answer seems to be....do whatever you want - prime or don't prime, and it will make no difference in the adhesion of the paint.
Just be sure to get rid of all the dust - we just rinse everything with a garden hose and high pressure nozzle.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I always use a primer. I fisrt cut the design from raw HDU. Then I sand the entire sign and then prime.....paint/paint. Then I put on pattern and then mask, then cut out and remove where needed. When it is blasted it will eat thru the paint and primer then in to the HDU.
When I strip off the mask I already have it painted. Then I can paint with the proper colors. I also do the background color before I pull the mask. Then a light sand on the painted surface and away we go.
The backsround color is made from one-shot lettering enamel or comprable paint (Pittsburg or Pratt Lambert) and mixed with flatting paste to achieve a nice flat surface.
...we seem to get stuck in what works for us.... Never had a failure so far....I guess that says something.
Jackson
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Kelly Thorson is correct . . . UV does degrade the paint on the TOPS of the signs and dimensional letters. (probably snow and rain don't help either)
You don't NEED to prime HDU - but priming any horizontal surface will serve you quite well . . .
We've seen the tops of HDU signs and letters fail (even with our standard 3-4 coats of acrylic) after 4 years or so.
Vertical surfaces? Not needed.
Horizontal? Go look at some of your old signs without primers . . . you won't believe how much the paint degrades on a flat, horizontal surface.
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Kelly Thorson and Jay Allen are correct. The only thing that affects HDU is UV. The reason for priming (besides a smooth surface) is to make sure that your HDU is completely coated. Because it's a closed cell product (doesn't absorb anything, which makes it completely waterproof) not everything adheres to it for the long term.
Gary Anderson does use an acrylic based paint with no primer, and he's done a lot of testing with it so knows it adheres for the life of the sign.
Jay is right, if you don't have your sign completely coated, you will notice a deterioration behind the paint.
Priming is inexpensive insurance that your paint and HDU sign will look great and last indefinitely.
We manufacture FSC-88 Water Based primer/filler and have a free training video on it for easy use. It is higher in solids and if you want a creamy consistency, which Karen mentioned and how we recommend using it, then reduce with about 2% water. It runs about $40.00 Gallon, which is less expensive than other high solid primers.
If anyone has any questions or would like to try a free pint sample of the FSC-88WB, or a CD of the training video, please call or email.
Thank you, Kellie
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Hey Kellie girl . . . I miss seeing you. We're thinking of going to the NBM show in Indy this year. Would you be going? If so, would love to go out to dinner and make a fool of ourselves . . . again.
We've used FSC-88 for about 10 years or so. The high-build solids (actually sands out really well once dry too!! for those 'glass finishes') really make a difference on the horizontal surfaces. We spray less heavy on the faces (except on lower density HDU's - we use a LOT of primer on that) and more on the tops of the signs and raised surfaces . . . and it DOES make a huge difference.
Ray . . . got your check. Thank you. Don should have his tomorrow or Friday for almost all the balance (still waiting on some) . . . nice total, it wa$ . . .
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Rusty, the commentary regarding whether to prime or not to prime is all good. But another comment I might add is toward the construction of the sign itself. You mentioned that this is your first fully HDU sign and it is double faced, 4.5x8'. If you have not already done so, I would strongly urge you to build this sign with back to back faces, using an internal support structure of some type.
Again, if you are already doing this, never mind. I mention it because I've seen newcomers to HDU (myself included!) make the mistake of using solid two-inch thick HDU for double faced signs, only to find out the hard way that such signs are vulnerable to breakage from relatively minor impact shocks.
Finishing, whether primed or unprimed, is important, of course. But the most beautiful finish won't protect an HDU sign that isn't built according to, and being aware of, the limitations of that material.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rusty, Cam does make a very good point, in one subject that wasn't addressed. When it really comes down to it, the way the sign is strengthened and mounted is really what will make it last. (Hi Cam!)
Great ideas everyone! (Jay I miss you too.. not sure about Indy, but we will catch up soon.. whether it's around a giant cow in WI or a German restaurant with Butch Anton and sausage.. ew) haha!
Take care, Kellie
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Cam...thanks for the advice on internal support structure...I did however construct it with that in mind...I used 2 one inch HDU panels with an MDO center...the sign is 2.5" thick...the picture below was taken before the final top 1" piece was glued on...the other picture shows after blasting with my homemade grain frame...another first...I liked the grain pattern ok but will fine turn it a bit more with some curvy bends and a small knot or 2...thanks everyone for the advice...muchly appreciated.
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