posted
Keeping it simple with this post, please follow along ---
Jobs scarce. Bidding wars hitting all time low. Low-ballers won't go out of business around here because they are working out of their garage. Better than no work at all, I guess. But don't cry when you don't have a retirement to fall back on. Quality doesn't matter either. People are willing to take anything as long as it's cheap.
Normal business philosphies no longer apply in this climate.
that's all....
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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"I'm calling around to get the cheapest price that I can. I want to get my tailgate of my F150 wrapped. Wuddya charge for that?"
"That'll run around $225.00"
"WOW - that's high"
"Do you have artwork or a layout?"
"No."
"Well that's what I get for that type of work. What kind of prices are you getting?"
"Well, one guy said he would do it for $ 120.00 and another said he would do it for $ 80.00."
"Oh...well go with him. You're not gonna beat that price."
------------------------------------------------
Right off of the bat I knew that this guy was gonna be trouble so I priced it about 25% higher than I normally would figuring that if I got the job that he would be a PITA anyway.
I just hope that he tells the shop where he gets it done (crappy layout - crappy material - no laminate) what my price is so they know how much money that they are leaving on the table.
I doubt it tho...
-------------------- Pat Neve, Jr. Sign Man, Inc. 4580 N. US 1 Melbourne, FL 32935 321-537-8675 Capt. Sign
posted
Nevman: You are right. It's all about leaving money on the table.
But as I've said, no one here seems to care about anything but price. They sure don't care about anyone making a real living.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
This problem has been around forever. Back B.C., every town had a Joe Wino or two ( or five or six or so ) depending on how big the town or city. What has happened in the past fifteen years or so, is the number of Joe Winos has increased exponentially. Before they really didn't effect much at all. Now, with their numbers, it's a different story...they have made a deep impact.
A lot of times it's more of an apples and oranges thing...the JW's are usually selling a lesser product.
[ January 15, 2009, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
"Normal business philosophies don't apply in this climate."
I'm tempted to say that depends on your "nomal business philosophy". A lot of people, myself included, get away with not paying attention to good business practices when times are good. When money tightens up like it has, that will bite you on the ass. On the other hand, people who maintain a sound business philosophy - charging what you are worth, providing a superior product with good cutomer service, being creative and proactive with your technical skills, staying involved with your community's networking resources (like Chamber of Commerce functions, etc.) and above all, maintain a positive attitude - tend to be the people who survive when the economy goes tits up in a ditch.
The bottom-feeders don't have any of those resources, all they can do is buy work, which they seem to do no matter what the economic climate. Fortunately it's not all that hard to be better than them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have been stuffing back for the past few years. I hate this has happened and although i will be fine theres not alot fo work being generated.
UPS guy i have services 4 other shops and he asked how i was doing and told me the others said they were dead. 09 is going to rough, im ready for it but it still sucks
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
The twist Michael mentioned in his original post is the garage angle. In most industries, those that do as Cam explains come out much stronger, as the weaker competitors go away.
I've heard from many out of work sign makers, working out of garages and basements. Although their work has declined to almost nothing, they just take on other odd jobs and keep the sign making "business" alive, to low ball another day.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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These people won't go away, but they will take away paying jobs and leave good money on the table while they're at it.
And don't count on them to fail. How can people like this fail if (and this is only one example) their spouse is the primary wage earner and all they have to do is hang around the "garage" waiting for a job to steal?
Think about it. You can't beat that "business philosophy" no matter how hard you try-!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I get really pi**** off at you who badmouth 'garage sign' shops!
For the last 42 years I have made a great living as a garage sign shop!
Over 95% of my work is done 'on site'!
In my garage is a board for the occasional shocard or 4 X 8 and some miscalaneous sign and for making paper patterns.
I specialize doing window splashes, walldogging and truck lettering. Obviously, no one is going to bring the 1st 2 types to me. As for truck lettering, most tow truck and/or fleet operators DO NOT like to bring the truck to you and then come back to pick it up. ( If you go to their yard, letter the truck, and pick up your check as soon as you are finished... everyone is happy! )
As far as undercutting price...Hah! I always charged more than other shops! Why...becuase I do window splashes and walls that computer jockeys can't do. Also... the added convenience for truckers is worth the extra cost to them.
As far as those whining about lack of work...there are many who are now buried with work! All you have to do is get off your ass and go out and hustle up jobs, then GET KNOWN for doing nice, original work ON TIME! Customers will then find you!
Now I will get off my soap box.
[ January 16, 2009, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I may not have a high traffic main street location, but at least the people who DO come here aren't kicking tires looking for the lowest price.
I built this garage from the ground up with my own hands. It may not be very impressive, but I use those same two hands and some brushes make the lasting impression with the customers.
Working out pretty good so far.... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jeff Ogden: "Joe Winos" have increased "exponentially"... and it will keep on increasing...
You must be good at math, George.
I don't worry about snappers, myself.
Yep, saw one just the other day. His hands shook like a leaf until the vinyl touched the vehicle.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Thanks Ricky, you got it pretty much right. Albeit the the computer and applications were nice to use for the lightweight crap. News is news, it is what it is I maybe shouldn't have any say at all since sales of software I helped with has done well. Oh, well...
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I was always a "back yard shop". No storefront expenses, no employee benefits.
I went to the clients and provided good service.
Even though I am fully retired now, and have no intention of re-entering the business world, I know I could do so fairly succesfully without infringing on the business I sold, poor economy or not.
I'm with ya Si....
quote:All you have to do is get off your ass and go out and hustle up jobs, then GET KNOWN for doing nice, original work ON TIME! Customers will then find you!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
i think everyone meant "garage" as a metaphor (or sumthin' like that) ...
sheesh ... and Si sends those nice morning greetings too!!!!
hahahahahaha
I was so broke when I started, I didn't even have a garage to start in ... I started in my kitchen!!!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I worked for 9 years out of a garage and garden shed, they were some of the happiest times I had, however most of the work was done "On-Site" at the customers location. I know loads of great people working from garages and their work and attitude to life is top notch.
No-one ever gets ahead by waiting for the work to come to them. Ask Jon Butterworth about his daughter Vicky in her mobile shop. Oh and Jon works from his garage too
Sure there are cowboys selling rubbish work on rubbish media for rubbish prices, there always will be, but what they don't know about signwriting is where the guys and gals with lots of experience and a fantastic networking tool like this site will always win!
Don't let the turkeys get you down!!
-------------------- Anne McDonald 17 Karnak Crescent Russley Christchurch 8042 New Zealand
"I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure" Posts: 877 | From: Christchurch | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
It's true, the lowballers never really go away - but think about it, what kind of work are they really getting? Magnetics, coro yard signs, banners, stuff that is perceived as cheap and portable. The customers that use them for this stuff aren't going to come to them for any serious signage, so why worry about them?
What I see as more of a problem is the larger shops that are chasing this kind of work in a desperate attempt to maintain cash flow. A local shop here - a second generation shop with all the bells and whistles - is printing double-faced job site signs, on coroplast, for $15 each in quantities of ten. If this is how some established places use their high-dollar DP equipment, what can we expect part-timers to do?
This is exactly why I've made a conscious decision, over the past couple of years, to stop chasing work that other shops are willing and able to do for less. It's not easy. I have to sell myself and my design skills, and I have to seek out clients who know the difference and are willing to pay for it. Volume is down, and the time I spend on each project increases - but I know I'm making a profit on the work I do, and the work is still satisfying - sometimes even fun. My stress is about the stuff I can control - my own costs, time management and organization - instead of the stuff I CANNOT control, like what other shops charge.
That's what I mean about business philosophies having to change or not. I don't know how well my methods are going to work in a tight economy, other than I'm going to have to work harder to find my type of clients, and to sell them on the value of what I do. But I sure don't see ANY point in spending my time worrying about the downward spiral in the prices other shops charge for signwork. My worrying, complaining, or venting on-line - and a buck and a half - will buy me a cup of coffee.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Enn ... my "backyard Garage Shed" is a little more "up-market" and bigger these days!
Back 25 years ago when I first arrived in OZ it was a CARPORT in a small rented house!
Main problem was packing everything back into the very small garden shed at night to put her car under cover ... and the wife (NOT Sue in those days) bitching about me using the kitchen table too!
posted
Darcy...I started in the 'bathroom' and ended up in the hallway... but I keep trying. The kitchen will have to rest, until I get the garden done.
btw...I like your artwork.
A-lot.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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you make great points, tho!!! one has to keep on hangin' on. every now and then, it gets under my skin, but for the most part I don't worry about it.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Bradley Sign and Graphic Studio was a pretty ambitious and grandiose title for starting out in a corner of my basement between the kids bikes and the washer and dryer...not too much has really changed since then other than that the kids left home and took their bikes...so now I have more room and 4 less mouths to feed...so why didn't I buy a building years ago...hire employees and expand like so many people suggested I do...one of the things I like about working at home is the freedom it gives me to spend more time on a project...I think the pressure to get things out the door to meet a big overhead would be a hugh dilemma for me psychologically...and would result in quite a bit of frustration...I have to work harder and spend more time than many to get my desired results...but it is something I'm willing to do...something I would not be afforded if I worked for someone else or had big overhead at the end of each month...and when all is said and done...I like things simple anyway.
posted
I gotta laugh out of the statement made about people being the second income of the household. Yes I am the second income. But if my income wasn't needed I wouldn't work. I would sit and paint lovely scenic pictures all day. Do you assume that second incomes are disposable incomes? And guess what? IF the economy is bad chances are that primary income is in jeprody too. Just because you are the second income does not mean your income is not important. Just because you work out of your basement/garage does not mean you go around stealing jobs. Just because you are smart enough not to crush yourself with overhead does not make you a second class signmaker. I would sincerely like to know what percentage of the people who post on here work out of a shop away from their house. And what percentage of those people wish they didn't at this time. Working out of your home does not make you a lowballer. I am the most expensive shop in the area. I will not change that because of the economy. As self employed people we are in charge of what we make. How long will it take us to crawl back up the ladder again if we allow ourselves to fall to the bottom. You get clients now with a low price and you will be expected to charge that same low price or lose those customers for how many years? Gee, I don't know. But I would rather do less at this time and keep my per hour than keep busy busy into the night at $6 an hour. When you look at the shops in this area that are having trouble its because they went out and built big new lovely shops. And now they have to pay for it. I'm sorry I don't feel for them at all. It was their decision to do that. And now when the economy is crap they still have to pay for it. But it is their problem. They made their beds. Now they have to lie in them. And if they go under guess who gets more business? At the price I want to charge because yes the signs still need to be made. But now perhaps they will be made at the price they should be.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I dunno, Michael Gene, I am more of a dining room table kinda sign gal. For awhile business was deader than disco. I kept on keepin' on and never lowered my prices. For the past two years I have been as busy as I want to be. I live in the armpit of America where there is a plotter on every corner and people are cheaper than dirt. But some of them really like the look of a painted sign. Or they are willing to pay me to design them a nice logo. I would say to try not to worry about the FleaBay cowboys or the CriCutters, but to make the best looking, most attractive desirable signs that you can. And don't give your work away. I try not to worry about something I have no control over, like the economy. It just makes me cranky, and I'd rather be content. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
At a trade meet a while back, the owner of one of the largest sign companies in the country told me he wished he was back working out of his garage.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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My two cents worth: Attitude will make or break you in tough economic times. You can spend your time worrying about "the inevitable" or use that time making your game plan. Figure out what you need to do to get the edge and do it. Or not....
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Jill don't need no garage!!! She paints signs in her living room!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Isn't this a great place to vent???
Speaking of vent --- hope yer house is well-ventilated, Jilly-!!!
I did get one job the other day where I actually had to use my brain. It paid well, the customer was happy, life goes on ...
funny thing, tho --- my "garage" was full of personal work stacked everywhere, so I was outside in 23 degree wind "stickering" his fenders and tailgate-!!!!
my oh my how far I've come!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I have to chime in here as one of the "mobile sign shop / garage sign guys. I absolutely LOVE what I do. Sign shops around me are going out of business left and right but I'm still here springing out of bed everyday excited about what project might I fall into today or the project I'm working on that I can't wait to see completed. I have barely no overhead and the way I see it as long as my health is ok and my truck is in working condition I can take care of my family whether I get the big jobs or the small jobs, there's provisions written for me that I couldn't avoid even if I tried. I'm seeing some of the guys who went out and bought all the latest and greatest in the 10,000 sq. ft. building stress out. I wish them the best, but i don't envy them. Mobile sign companies operate just fine as long as we have a sufficient place to build what we need , there's no problems. I'll sell the cheap stuff to the cheap customers and more upscale to upscale customers but I don't set my prices based on what others charge. I set them based on my time and talent. I do try to be fair to my customers, though and realize when a small business is working with a limited budget I try my best to do right by them and help them out, but I'll never sell myself short. I worked for $10 an hour when I was 18. I don't do that anymore.
I am the same,... having gone from a 10 person shop owner with the headaches and never got paid. But they did! down to one person... (Me). I gave up on the industry of signs and now work in a 16'x16' Design Studio only.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Hell I got ya all beat. . . my work area is actually tied into our living room. . .only 1 door away. . .ya git to go from "messy work area" to The comfort of the Lazy Boy within 6 ft. !!!! Still, when the 3 kids git blastin here I retreat to the "office". . . .well equipped with full size Fridge., Sony Multi-disk CD Changer. . .plotter & 'puter Workstation, work table. . .had a customer come over tonight said, "ain't that a big table?". .naw only a 12x6. . .him - you make signs that big? uh, yeah !!! Bigger the Better !
[ January 22, 2009, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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