posted
Hello Frutiger. I was in the habit of using Helvetica most of the time for phone numbers and small copy. Sometimes I'd use Futura or Antique Olive. I don't like those sharp points on Antique Olive. After tiring of looking at Helvetica for years I would try tighter spacing, extending, using something other than a dash in the phone number but it was just boring. The Helvetica habit probably stemmed from back in the 80s to early 90s using a Gerber 4B it was the default font. Come to think of it, before that one of the methods I used teaching myself to hand letter, I had a set of plastic letters I used as templates in 2", 3" on up I would trace around with my Electro pounce, even condensing or extending by moving it. Not the best way to learn but that's what I did. Also when in lived in Southern California until a couple years ago I was always so busy feeling rushed I didn't take time to try new ideas. I was in a rut, stressed out and finally sold almost everything and moved to Prescott, in the mountains of Northern Arizona. I have done very little sign work here, mainly because I was tired of the grind and when I did try to sell all I got was "We'll use you if you undercut the other guys price...." Lately, a few little jobs have trickled in due to a couple of satisfied customers telling people. I take more time now, even on simple small jobs. I saw a truck go by last week I had lettered a year ago using Frutiger on the phone # and small copy. I knew it was mine but I thought it had the look of someone who does better work than I do. That's always a good sign that I'm improving. I have Frutiger 65 and 75 that must have come with Omega. Now I gotta get light and condensed, etc. I don't know if I'll ever do sign work full time again, I've found other creative outlets that make a little, very little money. But I notice I'm getting re-energized and actually enjoy dealing with challenging customers. After almost three years of semi-retirement I have a new perspective on life, not just work. I try to enjoy each day and make every moment count. Treat everyone with kindness, even when I'm tempted not to. I have more tolerance for customers I would have seen as "difficult" when I was always in a hurry. I can take the time and see the situation from their point of view. Maybe they just didn't know a better sign would change their whole business image. Everybody has their story. Even the guy I saw this morning sitting on the curb with a bottle of wine. That could have been me. This business has been good to me. Life is good.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The message Chuck posts above says what so many sign folks feel...
QUOTE "...until a couple years ago I was always so busy feeling rushed I didn't take time to try new ideas. I was in a rut, stressed out..."
The cure is to purposely take the time to break out and do things in a whole new way.
This is one of the many things we try to teach in our workshops, based on our own experience.
It doesn't happen by accident or chance.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Since you are sounding more human these days Chuck...you might consider the "Humanist type" For me it is workable. Can be double spaced, tightened or extended some.
The Helvetica has been a friend for many seasons to me and brought piles of groceries in the door. I won't forget you,the way you were.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I wish I was the guy sitting on the corner with the bottle of wine...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
About 12 years ago I got tired of Helvetica and tried using Franklyn Gothic. Universe works in a lot of situations as well. Both fonts have good condensed versions. Humanist is my default font for call-outs on design drawings.
posted
I like Frutiger too, has a nice crisp look. When I worked at Morgan sign, pre Gerber era, we had a full set of Helvetica plastic letters in several heights,2"-6", which we used on the many site signs we did which all specified Helvetica for the numerous names and compainies involved in any project. We'd trace around them with a stabilo then letter them in.
posted
I can't remember the last time I used Helvetica.
My replacements had usually been from the Franklin Gothic family, but then I started using Hensler (from letterhead fonts) in place of blocky san-serif fonts. It can be used for main copy, as well as secondary copy and phone numbers. It had the solid, ultra-readable no-nonsense look of a gothic, but dresses it up with small pointed serifs, and best of all, it's an absolute joy to letter with a good sharp quill.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I made a rare visit to a Wal Mart last night and noticed they use Frutiger or something very close on all the in store displays. I still like it but it kind of degrades it a little in my mind. I think I'll look for something not so common to replace good old Helvetica.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Now imagine that you are tired of boring block of any kind, plus you also know how to put a font together ...
I've pondered for years what sort of font family to construct that will replace the helveticas and compactas of the world, and so far have coming up with --- NOTHING---!!!
Doesn't mean I don't think about it.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Mike, I've yet to see fonts that hold together that look like what we use to letter when we did it all with a brush. There are all these fonts with weak S's and not a proper flare at the stroke ends.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I am still looking for the dude sitting on the corner with the bottle of wine...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Rick Sacks: Mike, I've yet to see fonts that hold together that look like what we use to letter when we did it all with a brush. There are all these fonts with weak S's and not a proper flare at the stroke ends.
They were'nt fonts.. they were styles. and executed by a personal "hand" that stood out. eveyone knew who had undercut them or who won a bid by fair means because of their "style".
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am not a hand-letterer, but I know what you mean. There's a 70+ gentlemen in our area who is still doing it the old-fashioned way, and his block styles (which are in some ways eerily similar to the Arial family-!!!) simply cannot be duplicated as a font--at least not easily. While his stuff looks simple, a quick study of the actual shapes and negative space points up something quite complex yet natural.
His style is unmistakable.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I don’t wish to imply that there is anything mystical about hand lettering, but the fact that it’s the product of a set of almost automatic muscle reactions means that it’s individualistic, changeable and utterly organic.
There are mornings when I cannot make a pleasing letterform to save my life. I’ll stop and have a coffee in a vain attempt to improve matters but still, that illusive finesse has vanished.
Nineteen (or any random number of) minutes later it might pop back for no apparent reason! How did that happen, then? Did the moon dip bellow the horizon, was something, subconsciously, annoying me? I’ve no idea.
The point I’m trying to make is: To attempt to make a yes/no machine emulate these functions is an absurdity.
A machine can repeat a set of instructions - making perfect clones - as long as it’s bearings and blades remain within tolerance. A computer can redraw the same shape on-screen for eternity or as long as its soft/hardware and power supply remain stable.
Hand lettering is adaptable, malleable, infinitely variabile, eternaly fresh and prone to poor execution.
Fonts are set in stone, intractable, uniform, clonelike and prone to almost instant over-familiarity.
Hand lettering is for punchy display text and elegant or eye-grabbing few-offs.
Fonts are for repeatability, corporate identity and block text. However – like a soul mate – really fall in love and familiarity need not be a negative!
Unfortunately, secondary text falls between both stools. I guess most of us have to compromise.
I soon became disillusioned with computer-ugly sans and digitised my own hand-written sans-serif (gothic?) on GDSII software!!!!.
Despite the compromises and uniformity that fontmaking forces on the designer, I still use Chesham Sans all the time.
I've been asked a number of times if it's possible to make a font less uniform, less perfect, so that it appears more handlettered.
The answer is yes and no. OpenType fonts with replacement features make it possible to have as many versions of a letter as you want. So that would be a yes to some degree, but not "infinitely malleable," as you eventually run out of time to come up with a variation for every possibility.
On the no side, I tell people that hand letterers of old, had they had the means to make a perfect letter "O," they would have used that means, as we use it today. I know this to be fact, because I learned the business from people who painted by hand in the 70s then transitioned to vinyl cutters in the 80s and 90s. They were thrilled to be able to cut perfect circles finally-!!!!
There are tricks and gimmicks I've learned to use over the years when it comes to digitizing fonts, but the one hardest for me to learn is that I need to quit making things so uniform. The more uniform it is, the more obvious it is that you are just looking at a font. I've not mastered the UN-uniform look yet, but I'm getting there.
Part of the problem is, make it too UN-uniform and it looks like an amateur decided to try his hand at font design-!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I will take the perfection of the "font" to ease the repetition of letter forms. Design is still design.
I remember a layout in the back of a Speedball book that said...
"A poor layout will kill the best of lettering because it distresses the optic nerves."
Now, let's see if I can finally find the guy sitting on the corner with a bottle of wine...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Are you saying all you wanna do is "sit" around and "wine?"
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I like what Arthur said...and the way he thinks.
Hand lettering cannot be duplicated because it takes on the personality of the writer...and that changes from minute to minute. Some is good and some is bad, but it's always different.
The good old days were good old days, but I don't want to sit at a bench and hand letter Times Roman for 10 hours a day. Now, show cards....that's a different ball game.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Raymond is right. Nobody wants to spend their days hand-lettering 1" Times Roman. Plotters and software were designed to relieve us of that tedium, allowing the letterer to spend his time on creative and more enjoyable work - showcards, anyone?
The problem, like with most technology, is in its application. From freeing the creative signpainter from tedious, repetitive work, the technology very quickly became an overused shortcut - once signs could be produced without ANY hand lettering, persons entering the trade no longer had any incentive to learn the skill.
Now we have the spectacle of "fonts" that are intended to imitate hand lettering styles - and like most imitations, the harder they try, the more artificial they look. Not that this matters, because as hand letterd work becomes increasingly rare, not only can our customers not tell the difference, but sign professionals can't, either.
But what's really sad is that along with the loss of lettering skills are all the secondary skills that accompanied the learning curve. When an apprentice learned to hand letter, the person teaching was also likely to point out other errors in design, things like line weight, optical spacing, negative space, color and contrast. When a person can make signs without having to learn one basic skill, chances are they aren't going to be bothered to learn any of them. The result is the sea of ugly sign pollution all around us.
Isn't it ironic? The machine that was supposed to free us from tedium and repitition, has turned us from creative artisans to machine operators, and makes most of us work longer and harder for less money.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
No, Michael, I don't want to whine... i just want to sit on the corner, watch the girls walk by, and drink some wine. Yup, that sounds like a nice thing to do. Too bad it is 4 degrees outside.
I remember the days when you could look at a sign and instantly determine who lettered it. We all had out own styles for designs, colors, letter forms, etc.
Too much stuff today looks too generic and cookie cutterish. Bad design is rewarded with "oohs" and "aahs" from their peers and the general public.
I have no solution. Maybe it is time to quit. Yeah, right... Hahahahahahaa!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
In one of our sign journals there was a full page ad this month for a vinyl manufacturer that used a body wrapped HHR Panel like mine.
I suppose this was intended to represent the top of the line in body wraps. The only problem was that you couldn't read any of it...but it was colorful.
Is this what happens to you when you get old? You just start complaining about everything?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Don't know how we ended up on body wraps, but the trend for body wraps around here lately is to forget that it would be nice if the business name and phone number could actually be located and read amongst all that wonderful and realistic background noise.
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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Being a bulletin painter from the 60's,seeing a major shift from classic letter styles and the use of cutout letters (mostly from Spanjer Co.)on a lot of bulletins (Times Roman) for banks and major retail. I can say when first working with the helvetica type and learning about some of the complex modes of achiving the exact amount of shape in all the letters to work as a painted text as opposed to the way that type was formed, it allowed a painter to have leeway and some liberty to cheat some. When moving back to the left coast the fashion was more or less a loose compromise as to how to make ad agencies and art directors happy with such things as extreme kerning to the point of touching or double spacing with extra kern. That made for a more interesting attention getter as a potential buyer of product veiwing the sign might flash on the copy a little stronger. It also made a better day in the shops to look forward to the loose styles and easier by far to make good time on knockin' out boards and afforded some room for the "looks faraway from a distance" mantra. It did get tiresome but as far as lighting up the sky with a particular letter style...? Knock out "Block" with a bit of script or casual can still carry a fair tune. Add a poster outline or a mellow shade . Most cereal boxes tell the story.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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