posted
Everybody else seems to have them; I guess it was my turn in the barrell.
Got a call from a restaurant down the street from my shop. This place has two fairly large signs, of the "let's save money by hiring an incompetent" variety, with fake gold (the color of used diapers) flat cut-out acrylic letters on a grass-green background. This abortion apparently wasn't working like it oughta (having virtually no contrast would be the first clue) because they now wanted new signs with black ground and gold letters, with a new logo.
I met with the owner and manager on site. They showed me what they wanted, then the dickering started. The manager asked how much money would be saved by re-using the material from the old signs. (NONE!) Then he asked if I would take the acrylic letters "which you could use again somewhere else" (REALLY?) and wanted to know how much "credit" that would get him off the price.
At this point, I'm about ready to put a boot up this clown's a$$ - but while I've been busy, I'm not busy enough to walk away from a potential $3k job. I explained - very slowly and patiently, like you talk to small children, dogs and mongoloids - that I'm not a junk dealer, and that I'm not going to cut up their old signs and use them over, on his or anyone else's project. At t hat point the owner, who hadn't said much up to now, asked me to write a proposal and get it to them.
To my great surprise, I got the job, though not before the manager continued to squeal and whine about the price. Part of my proposal was for posts and installation - if they gave me the job at my price, would I "throw in" four posts? I smiled and said I'd ask the lumberyard if they had any plans to give away 4x4s anytime soon. That shut him up.
But the deposit check cleared, and the balance will be paid before they come off the truck, if not sooner. The way I look at it, they will get their signs, I will get paid, and the manager will be just as dense tomorrow as he was yesterday.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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Like I have said in the past, It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around, but why do they all have to congregate around me? I once had a neon customer bring me some old border tubing from his building and wanted me to use it to make him a new neon sign. Guess what I told him? Trash can is around the corner in the back. His reply was, gee, does that mean you can't use this? Yes sir, you got it! Then I made him an all new sign.
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
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I thought I was the only one who gets asked put $12 worth of paint & labour over a 2nd hand $2 piece of corro, so it could be reused.
(Cam, can I have those imitation gold letters, if you freight them downunder, it might still be cheaper than me cutting out new ones one day... )
Well done on the quick thinking & on getting the job.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Hey, people have their ways and by now I thought you could let comments like that roll of your back. In the end he gave you a $3000 job, not chicken feed around here. Worth a few ignorant comments and all is well that ends well.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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LOL . . .Cheapskapes . . . par for the course ain't they . . .
As a notorious inmate once told me: 'You have a criminal mind' LOL I reckon because I'm always wondering what the ulterior motive is in illogical actions . . . Sometimes, illogical behavior is a result of poor manipulation skills . . .lol
I wonder if the manager thought he was impressing the owner by haggling with you? Like maybe the owner would give him a big raise for 'looking out' for the business's financial interests/saving the owner's money . . . Meanwhile, the manager probably skims money all sorts of ways from the boss . . . I'm thinkin' . . . his conscience must be botherin' him . . . Or maybe he really is an idiot! . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Good one Cam. And way to get the sale. Some people would walk away from the moron and lose a good job.
I once had a customer that needed a broken window replaced that I had lettered with vinyl. I arrived to find all the vinyl letters laying on her desk, carefully taken off with a razor blade, ready for me to reapply.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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There are no customers who compare to those who think using 15 year old lumber, equally old and and often rotted posts and rusty mounting hardware will save them money. I liken these people to single celled plankton...they have one goal in life...
...to be eaten.
Couple of weeks ago, I was assaulted by a like minded lower life form who wanted me to refurbish a sign that has been recognized widely as the most decrepit one in town. It was made by a retired competitor 21 YEARS AGO and most of the folks around town agree that it should have been replaced 10 YEARS AGO. Peeling paint, no concrete for the posts have left it leaning rather awkwardly, not much of a design at all.
Simple solution... "We start fresh, you get more than a couple of years out of it and it'll cost less than all the labor I would have to do trying to save the embarrassing nightmare that it has become.
Tomorrow...the all new sign goes in the ground. PVC with an updated layout, new posts with sleeves and caps, different shape and a warranty.
You know, they are almost happy I didn't let them go on the cheap.
Almost... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Try working in a body shop. They really think you are stupid then.
They always want a paint job for Maaco prices but not Maaco quality, or "While you have paint in the gun, can you repaint the rest of the car . . . " when you are only spraying 1 or 2 panels.
There are the geniuses that come in dangling the keys to their "luxury" BMW or Benz in front of your face, expecting you to do the work for nothing. "This is your chance to work on a BMW," they say. Like we haven't ever or are even impressed they have a big car payment every month.
Then the "restoration" guys come in and tell you all the thousands of dollars they put into the engine of their car, then want you to paint it for no more than $500.
Of course, we can't forget about the other restoration guys that have the car "90%" complete, they just need you to finish it up and paint it. Of course, all this is only worth $600.
-------------------- Dan Beach Cylinder 9 Designs 1650 Glassboro Rd Sewell, NJ 08080 Posts: 625 | From: South Jersey | Registered: Sep 2008
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Cam, you always say thing things I *wish* I could come up with. Man I love reading your stories - especially the moronic customer stories.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Don't you also know that there are some folks somewhere that are posting similar statements about "those idiots" in the sign business?
I probably appear the same way to my computer geek when I ask him dumb questions or try to do something that is completely stupid...to him at least.
Einstein said that we are ignorant...just in different areas.
And, yes...I deal with the same people. After all these years it's just part of the program and I try to smile and explain why what they want is not all that practical.
But it's still fun to rant about them.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Around here the idea has spread that coroplast has become the material of choice to line guinea pig cages. I have no problem selling a 4x8 of coro for $20 for just throwing it in the back of someones truck.
A few weeks ago this guy stops in an buys one. The next day he calls and says that he cut it incorrectly. He wants to know if I'll take it back and get him a new sheet!
I said no, . . . and he ordered a new sheet anyhow.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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You know, I deal with folks like that all around here.
I started picking up some work from another "sign" company, and he told me this morning that a gentleman came in with a plywood sign that was about 40" x 48" (oval). It was about 12, 15 years old, and he wanted it re-done. He wanted the old paint removed, and relettered with them "sticky letters"...
Problem is, another sign shop in town quoted him $120 to do it, and he was trying to beat the price...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Great story, and you came away with the job. Thats a big winner in my book. I love reading this stuff.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Had a tree trimmer come in and wanted to know if I could just lay out a sign for a 4x4 and make a pounce pattern for him so he could paint it himself.
I said,"No Problem" Layed it out and gave him a call, when he came in my wife said that it would be $45.00. He froze.
"I did not expect to pay anything for it Sam said it would not be a problem."
He said he would be back when I was in.
Later he stopped back, I immediately said to him, remember when I asked you for a price on clearing my lot next door and you quoted me $12,000.00 to do it? I am ready to do it, is that a problem?
No he replied. Ok then I said go ahead and start anytime Oh and here is your pattern that makes us even.
He paid the 45 and left. Lot still is not cleared
-------------------- Sam Staffan Mackinaw Art & Sign 721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI dstaffan@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1694 | From: Mackinaw City, MI | Registered: Mar 2004
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Did a batch of pinstripes on some carriages years back (with a quote) when it was time to collect the owner of the palace sent the stable master out to try and chizzle me down. I told him to tell the owner that I also sell fire insurance. Got paid real quick.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Had a customer once who asked what I did with all the letters I weeded out of the reverse panels I cut for his logos.
Seems, he was thinking he could get 2 signs for the price of one!!!!!
Same customer once asked for a couple of "0"s and some "5"s for his menu board. Free of course! He had altered all the prices on it and damaged some in the process!
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6716 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey, Cam, this is a perfect before and after type thing. I am dying to see the before and even more curious to see the after! Let's see it man!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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That story is awesome. I think it is great for us all to hear those experiences especially with a good outcome. Just confimation for us to let them know we are the experts and if they want our services they will pay our prices and get the job they wanted in the first place.
You guys are all great. I look forward to interacting with you more.
posted
Hey Cam " No Problem there's nothing we can do"
-------------------- Alan Johnson Alan Johnson Grafix Blairstown, NJ 07825 [URL=http://www.alanjohnsongrafix.com] Posts: 261 | From: Blairstown, NJ | Registered: Dec 2001
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I like what Ray said. I have a sister-in-law who likes to make fun of her customers, explaining why they are so stupid, for thinking she can get certain flowers out of season, or that they want this or that for their wedding.
But people outside of her business just don't know about those things. Yep, I have had customers come in & do the same things you are all talking about, & it does sometimes seem idiotic, but then I remember they simply do not KNOW.
Then when I think of the economy & how many people are trying to cut corners, we will probably see it more often. Requests to re-use old materials, etc.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Cam, Having worked for a circus for two summer seasons in high school, I was fascinated with the "Guess Your Weight and Age" guy... He would just look at the person closely while walking around him/her in a circle... Then he would guess the age and weight of the person. Within two years and within 5 pounds... He was mostly right on the money... I'm going to try a lttle something like that now... I never met the manager you spoke to, so I may be a little off... It is my guess that he wears a size 56 jacket and a size 3 hat.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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I bit of explanation is in order, for those who suggest that I am making fun of my customers for not knowing whether it's appropriate to re-use old materials. This customer did not ask a reasonable question (such as "Would it be possible to use this material?) No. What the customer said was something to the effect of "You can use this material we already got, right? How much you gonna take of the price for that?" This was said before any prices were quoted or discussed. My response of why that would not be appropriate were brushed aside; I had to explain, several times, why scraping old vinyl and silicone would cost more, in time spent, than $75 for a new piece of MDO. A potential customer who keeps insisting, despite my explanations, on how I should use old material to save money, tells me a couple of things: One, he has no respect for my time or professional opinion, and two, he has entered this conversation on the assumption that I am somehow trying to overcharge or rip him off by using new materials. Under the circumstances, I feel I treated this customer with a great deal more patience and respect than he deserved - and in doing so, saved the negotiation and got the job.
I don't expect customers to know all the reasons for the decisions I make. I do prefer it, though, when I don't have to talk through a person's navel because of how far they have their head up their own a$$.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I gotta stop putting my boot in the guy's @r$e FIRST and THEN trying to get the job!!! hee-hee!!!
-------------------- Michael Gene Adkins The Fontry 1576 S Hwy 59 Watts OK 74964 Posts: 845 | From: Watts, OK USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Then he asked if I would take the![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
and wanted to know how much "credit" that would get him off the price. ![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
That shut him up. ![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Under the circumstances, I feel I treated this customer with a great deal more patience and respect than he deserved - and in doing so, saved the negotiation and got the job. 
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