posted
I'm just curious to see if anyone has experienced a similar problem with HDU. Lately I have been noticing that Latex Paints are not sticking as well to HDU. It does not peel off on its own or anything, but if I nick the finish, I can just peel it right off in huge sections. If it has always been this way, I have not noticed until now. I always prime with Jay Cooks and finish with Ben Moore or Sherwin Williams Exterior Latex Paints. Any suggestions? Am I losing my mind? Cheers, SE
-------------------- Sarah F. Evans Appalachian Signs and Design 186 Parkside Road Boone, North Carolina 28607 Posts: 97 | From: Boone, NC | Registered: Dec 2006
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We use Precision Board HDU with their waterbased primer. Our acrylic paints (General Paint) stick to that without any problems to date.
We use 30 lb board however so the substrate is very solid.
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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If the surface has been painted during wet weather it will retain moister from the air and kick off the outer layer. I have had this happen. The outer layer dries but does not adhere.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I have had the same problem once in a while I stopped using the Jay Cooke's primer and now use the precision board primer even on sign foam. Tat stuff seems to bite in like crazy
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Sara, I've noticed it too . . . I use Zinser's 1-2-3 primer. Some of the best on the market. My first clue of concern came when I saw that no matter how well I cleaned the peice, even blowing it off with air, or wiping with a tack cloth, or water rinse, or all of the above, it still looks like the primer is 'beading' and fish-eyeing while applying it to the surface. Alway omens that paint will peel if it's not getting proper adhesion.
I wanted to think it was because of the insanely minute dust particles HDU creates, but you know from the obvious beading it's NOT dust, there's just too much silicone/plasticisers in the material. Apply the primer too thick, or without thinning, and it does'nt cure properly, too thin and it seems to bead-up even more. Both cause adhesion problems. And lets' not even mention the pin-holes that seem impossible to fill in.
I've never had any adhesion problem with paint, latex or oil on the primer. When I get peeling its the primer lifting off the HDU. Usually when applying vinyl.
The first HDU material I used some years ago NEVER beaded when primed, NEVER had pin-hole trouble... To the contrary, it seemed to soak in fairly evenly just like wood . . . I'd rather apply 10 coats of primer that soak in, than a couple that bead and just 'sit' on the surface.
I started with GatorFoam, then there was one sheet I got green coloured, (I forgot the name of it) . . . the 'new' stuff has been Everwood.
As bad as I hate it, I've tried oil-based primers with much less trouble other than the insane drying time . . .
posted
Yeah, I've run into that too. Seems like the primer does not really go down into the pores of the material....at least on the top.
When I paint the areas blasted out, it seems to bite fine. The areas where the peeling occurs is usually on top, the original surface. I've even sanded the top, prior to painting, and it seems to have no bearing.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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This is the best Primer I have used on HDU! It is a two part automotive primer (PPG Omni MP243) PPG Omni MP243
I blow the panel off with high pressure air and pour the primer on the panel. I squigee it into the HDU (using force). It dries quickly. Sand and paint!
Never had a failure!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I'd like to jump in here for a minute and hope nobody minds. (thanks Dave Harding for letting me know about this post)
HDU is an inert product, and doesn't absorb anything. What this means is that everything dries out through the top. This is the good and bad of HDU, and it's great if it's understood.
When water based products are used (vs solvent) it's really recommended to use a shop fan over the surface of the drying primer/paint. What this does, is cause frictional heating which pulls out whatever moisture has moved back into the primer. (moisture is always moving to where it's warmer and drier... same thing is happening with wood)
Basically, the primer and or paint is sitting on top of the HDU. What you are trying to achieve is enough mil build to sand only your primer so you have a smooth surface for your paint.
If you are having problems with it pulling up from board, it could be that you are using a primer not made for HDU or that it's not completely dry. The shop fan will take care of the problem.
I won't explain all of it here, but I would recommend that you watch the priming video on our web site. http://www.precisionboard.com
I will also be happy to send you a copy (CD at no charge) and a pint of our primer, FSC-88WB.
If you have any questions, please give me a call or email. Whichever is easier for you.
Thank you and hope this little bit of information helped. (I didn't want to take up a lot of room, when the video really explains everything much easier)
Thanks, Kellie
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Thank you Kellie . . . I for one will check that out . . .
Tony! What is that? Like bondo?? Looks like fun on the flat surface . . .but I'm wonderin'- how much fun is it after sandblasting? You use a stiff brush or somethin'?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: Thank you Kellie . . . I for one will check that out . . .
Tony! What is that? Like bondo?? Looks like fun on the flat surface . . .but I'm wonderin'- how much fun is it after sandblasting? You use a stiff brush or somethin'?
It is supposed to be sprayed.
-------------------- Dan Beach Cylinder 9 Designs 1650 Glassboro Rd Sewell, NJ 08080 Posts: 625 | From: South Jersey | Registered: Sep 2008
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50 Gal? Sure, I think it's on the private jet that is full of PBLT-30.. (you know, the one that you and Dave requested last month) Put on a coat and go stand outside, you should see it flying overhead soon. hahaha
:-) How are you?
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hey. I'm so glad I've started something with this thread. I just wanted to add in response to a previous response, that it can peel off right to the bare HDU....Obviously there is a problem with Primer Adhesion. Maybe I should switch primers. Feel free to add suggestions as to which primer you guys prefer. Thanks so much!
-------------------- Sarah F. Evans Appalachian Signs and Design 186 Parkside Road Boone, North Carolina 28607 Posts: 97 | From: Boone, NC | Registered: Dec 2006
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It can be rolled, brushed (I use a $.99 heavy bristle throw away brush on sandblasted grain) or sprayed. I use the squigee method to force it into the foam. I have never had this primer lift! It smells like bondo but it is a sprayable paint. Do NOT use foam brushes or rollers!!!
Kellie's product sounds very interesting! Kellie! Where did you learn all that "stuff"??
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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We use the primer Kelly speaks of above. Its a water based primer that dries quickly and is easy to clean up the tools.
Its thick like cream and doesn't crack or shrink when it dries. We use it to apply texture too... a great looking subtle texture on lettering under gold leaf or as a background on a smaller sign.
I keeps well and doesn't skin over.
We use it a lot on our shop and just did a re-order for a bunch more.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Like Grandpa and some others, we use the FS-88-WB primer on HDU. It can be thinned some with water to go through our HVLP spray gun but can be brushed right out of the can. It sands to a perfectly smooth surface if that is what you want, or it can be piled on for texture, although they have a different product for producing texture. All of the Coastal Enterprises products are great and work well together...even that HDU stuff.
OK Kellie...that's my Ka-Ching for Coastal Enterprises - just put my check in the mail. Or you can take me out for dinner when we are in Long Beach next year. If I remember correctly I bought last, so it must be your turn.
Dan...her name is Kellie, not Kelly. You should know that. Be nice to the Golden Goose.
[ November 13, 2008, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Oops....forgot the orginal post. Sarah, be sure that you don't have any dust that you are painting over. Either blow it off really well with compressed air, or take it outside and blast it with high pressure water. It won't absorb the water, so it should dry rather quickly.
We've had some small stops that tend to peal up if we put clamps or something heavy on the paint before it has cured well.
When we used to use redwood it was not uncommon to have a bubble come up under the latex paint, but if you left it alone it would go back down and stick to the wood.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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For starters let me say that I use Chromatic's High Build Primer and as far as I know have never had a problem. It dries fairly smoothly, sands easily, and two coats is usually all it takes.
Next, I want to say that I've heard of Kelly's fan drying solution and for the life of me the explanation makes no sense. I'm no engineer, but how in the world does a gentle breeze from a box fan (or whatever) create enough friction to raise the surface temperature of the paint so that the evaporation rate is accelerated? And even if this is possible, wouldn't the cooling effect of the evaporation negate any rise in temperature?
I don't mean to sound confrontational(after all, that's Madden's job) but could someone 'splain this to me?
-------------------- Brian Oliver Paxton Signs Fort Collins, CO paxton@peakpeak.com www.paxtonsignsofcolorado.com Posts: 237 | From: ft. collins, colorado,usa | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sarah, if your primer is peeling down to the HDU it probably isn't cured all the way through. It could have skinned over too fast when drying (that's why it's not recommended to dry outside) or as you mentioned, not the right primer for HDU (look at the board with a magnifying glass, you'll be able to see if there is some primer there.. if so, it is adhering but not dry)
Brian, you asked a good question. What the fan is doing (not a light breeze across it but you'll want to use a large shop fan for some movement) is pulling out the moisture quicker and stopping any additional moisture from moving in. It will also help to dry your primer faster. Watch the surface while your fan blows across it. It goes from glossy to dull as it pulls the solvents/moisture out. You can even test that by waving your hand over a small wet piece. It's really just speeding up the drying process, getting anything out that has gone back into the waterbased product, and stopping anything else from re-entering. This is happening with other substrates, for instance with wood, but the moisture can dry out through the back and sides. (remember HDU doesn't absorb Anything, and everything dries back out through the top)
It is much more critical with HDU because if your products are not completely dry or cured, they could blister in the sun, pull down to raw material when blasting or have other problems. The fan really does take care of all of these problems.
It would be very helpful for you watch the video because it will answer a lot of these questions much better than I'm expressing myself here. But if you'd like to go into more detail, please call me at 800-845-0745. - Or you can go with Raymonds answer of "Hey.. it works" ;-)
I will also be happy to send samples, please let me know.
Tony, I work with our products a lot and do a lot of testing and training with them. Plus, I have the lot of you at Letterhead meets, putting me on the spot. lol. Actually, I've been here 14 years and since we manufacture our products we do a lot of R&D. It has also helped a lot with listening to what you all really want and need and going from there.
Let me know if I've helped or confused... :-)
Thanks! kellie
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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That woman knows what she's talking about...and that's not intended as a joke. She is constantly testing the products and trying to improve them. And she does that by listening to us.
In times past she has taken my problems/questions and researched and tested until she found the solution and then called to let me know what to do.
Thanks Kellie. You are one of a kind.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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About painting a sandblasted background. There is no need for a primer here. Kellie's primers work great for texturing or smoothing and it sands great. But when it comes to a sandblasted background, the texture is already there, and you don't want it smooth, so just paint on your favorite paint or stain. Mine is Woodsman exterior latex stain from True Value or Mautz. Both are thin enough to work into the texture easier than say a Benny Moore which is as thick as pudding (tough to work into all the little crevices). Two coats directly on the HDU and you are good to go. Will last for years.
Think about what a primer does. Its main job is to be a base coat that will stick well to a raw surface and accept the top coat. This is especially important for wood. But HDU does not absorb liquids, and the top coats stick to it as well as primer.
Either dust on the HDU or Kellie's statements about the paint not being dry enough are the only two possibilities for paint lifting off HDU (if you've kept it indoors). We always give latex at least 24 hours dry time between coats, more if humidity is high. The fan trick (after the paint is dry to the touch) also helps a lot.
Paints that list dry times are usually considering wood as the substrate. When you prime wood it is soaking into the wood, and moisture is being pulled from the paint into the wood as well as into the atmosphere. On HDU it can only go into the atmosphere so dry times will be longer. You never want to put a top coat or second coat on latex that isn't dry.
This trick works on flat surfaces. Put your hand on it. If it feels cool, moisture is still evaporating through the top skin.
I have been using stain on hundreds of signs over the past 8 years on HDU and the background on very first one, still looks like the day I finished it.
One other tip. The extender that Wagner sells to thin latex for their airless sprayers works well. It doesn't thin the paint, it breaks the surface tension. This allows the stain to flow into the little crevices on sandblasted backgrounds much easier. We use it mainly on the first coat of stain.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Gary Anderson (and others) does not use any primer on HDU and has had success for years. I just like the look of the paint with a primer underneath, but several coats of the finish paint would do the same thing.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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QUOTE: "Think about what a primer does. Its main job is to be a base coat that will stick well to a raw surface and accept the top coat. This is especially important for wood. But HDU does not absorb liquids, and the top coats stick to it as well as primer . . . been using stain on hundreds of signs over the past 8 years on HDU and the background on very first one still looks like the day I finished it."
I just had something like a V-8 moment . . . my forehead hurts really bad . . . but that makes more sense than anything I've heard in a long time . . . thanx!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Thank you so much everyone for the responses to this thread. Thanks to Kellie, I will check out this video. I must say as a closing remark.....If I had a supplier for Precision Board, I'd use it all the time. I have used Precision Board once and Sign Foam is a FINISHING NIGHTMARE in comparison. If anyone has any suggestions on Precision supply, please do share. I am in the mountains of NC and we all know that freight on Sheet materials is outrageous. Over and Out, Sarah
-------------------- Sarah F. Evans Appalachian Signs and Design 186 Parkside Road Boone, North Carolina 28607 Posts: 97 | From: Boone, NC | Registered: Dec 2006
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