posted
When I used to only paint signs, I coated my sign substrates with high-quality exterior latex gloss enamel. After I started making stickers that wouldn't stick to latex, I switched to using 1Shot for backgrounds and have been happy with it for years.
Fast forward to Monday. I cut out a small sign from pre-finished MDO. Figuring I could get to lettering it quicker, and also because I had a quart of latex, I scuffed it with a Scotchbrite pad and painted it with a foam roller. Next day I did another coat. Let it rest for a whole day.
This morning I sketch on my lettering (It's a sign for two boys' treehouse) and think to myself that I could sponge in a subtle border. So I go to tape it off with fineline lettering tape. Bad idea. It instantly pulled up the paint, even as I was applying it.
The sign is now flipped over and I just coated out the other side with 1Shot. How long should I have waited before using tape? Not that it really matters, because I won't be messing with latex paint anymore.
(Not that 1S is the greatest, either. My other job today was to handletter 4 boards for the sides of a dump truck bed, customer supplied and painted. Not my favorite type of work but hey it's 100% profit and the boards were fairly smooth. Of course they were painted in flat latex. My bright red 1S lettering has dried in two hours to the texture and color of a brick)
Love....Jill Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have had a heck of a time getting latex paint to stick to that pre-primed MDO. I hope someone can figure out a method to make it stick. Otherwise, I just used the unprimed boards.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you can find it..."XIM FLASH BOND" it comes in a white color as well as clear. Check on the net to see if there is a distributor in your area.
P.S. Some latex semi gloss takes forever TO NOT be sticky and vinyl copy will not stay on.
Jack
[ September 11, 2008, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey Jack, tell her not to use the XIM CLEAR. It doesn't work very well. But the White, great stuff. Green can; dries fast; easy sanding; and it will even stick to glass. Many commercial paint stores carry it.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
for small signs under 2'x 2' i find KRYLON SPRAY PAINT does a great job for background. drys in an hour, and you can vinyl or tape or paint it no problem. iam still in the stone ages when it comes to LATEX. dont like it, seems to never get a GLOSS finish like oil base does.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
While I've never used the pre-finished MDO, we did use the preprimed for awhile and had lots of problems with the paint lifting after it was in the field for a few months.
Now we use only the raw MDO and then prime and paint with our usual system.
For any masking we use the regular blue painters tape from the hardware store. Tape down and roll with a J-roller, then paint up to the tape with the background color and then with whatever color we are adding to the background. Just did that about an hour ago with no problems....and the background paint was less than 24 hours old.
OP is right - you'll never get that glass-smooth finish with latex like you can with enamels, but then I'm not a big fan of high gloss finishes anyway. That is why the acrylics we use are either flat or satin.
[ September 11, 2008, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Never used the prefinished MDO. I have used the preprimed though and had no trouble as long as I sanded the primer then treated it like raw MDO. The primer they put down is thin and been on the boards so long its hard so you need some mechanical adhesion by sanding them.
I just purchased a bunch of the Rhino paint and I'm liking it. Haven't tried any vinyl yet but I am getting a smoother finish than I thought I would.
For one, foam rollers do not work well with latex. Use a short nap roller. For anything smaller than a 4x8 I use a 3 inch SureLine roller. Take a scrap piece of vinyl and roll the roller on the adhesive side to defuzz the roller. Roll on thin coats. It dries better, faster, smoother. Before it has very long to set up, roll the roller almost dry then LIGHTLY re-roll a section. I was amazed at how smooth it came out. Not sure if it's the paint or the technique or a combination of both. I think the paint helps because Sherwin Williams Super paint didn't work as well.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The pre-primed MDO boards were probably set up with a slip coat for making forms for concrete. The white finish was probably done at the mill as an attempt to satisfy orders for other purposes such as interiors for animal compounds and the like. There is a waxy film that originally comes with the MDO laminate when it is attached.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Taking this a little further, I have two 16' x 2' signs I'm making using Omega Board. Large copy is all 3M vinyl, but I wanted to roll on a partial background using latex, but the Omega coating is a vinyl. Maybe I should go back to 1S for the background?
posted
Greg, if you are using the same Omega stuff that I did (OmegaBond by Laminators, Inc.) you will have great success with using Roman lettering enamel as a background. I use Ronan more and more. 1S will also work. In this instance, I feel either is a better alternative to Latex. I am going to stick to my tried & true, the only time I will use Latex is for painting interior walls in my home. Going up to letter my sign, which has a gorgeous glass-like finish now. (used Ronan) Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do what Dave does, I only use the pre-primed MDO but I still sand it and prime it again before putting my colors down. I have had luck with Porter paint for back ground colors and then I just paint away right over it.
-------------------- Sharing the WORD one sign at a time!! Joe Golden Signage 721 Oak ST, Madisonville KY, 42431 270-871-0454 Posts: 270 | From: Madisonville, Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
If the Omega board has a vinyl coating, just put down a barrier coat. TiCote by Ronan is great stuff, dries fast, water based and it's main purpose is to make vinyl enamel receptive.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jilly, so many things, and even combination of things can cause that problem . . . latex dries & cures at different rates according to temperature and humidity. Also, when you scuffed the surface did you wipe it off really, really well, like with a tack-cloth? Could there have been dust left on the surface?
Here's another thought/Q: Is pre-finished MDO finished with an oil-base finish? Because it can be difficult to get good latex adhesion on an oil-base surface sometimes. Who knows who or how that stuff is factory-applied. You could'a got one that was coated with something that was not stirred well. ya know?
Also, I've noticed tape can be affected by tempature as well as it's age. I was helping a guy do some house-painting. He had some of that blue Sherwin-Williams tape. He got a bunch of it on sale, a real deal he said. Well, it pulled up paint even to the raw sheetrock. Turns out, the rolls had been sitting on a 'sale' shelf in the direct sunlight of the store. It made the tape too sticky. His 'real deal' was highly cost INeffective. But you get the idea. Who knows how old tape already is when we buy it!
On another job, we noticed latex paint was literally fish-eyeing and leaving these weird greasy spots in someplaces . . .the paint was not covering well. We finally figured out it was from some sheetrock hanger(s) who must have had greasy hands and arms. The spots were at places where they would likely be pressing against the sheets while setting them in place. No telling who handles MDO sheets from the factory to the supplier and what all kinds of lotions and oils they have on their skin.
This is another reason why I love aluminum. It comes with that protective sheet. I know when I pull that off that plastic covering the panel is perfectly clean.
Anyway, usually if I need paint to dry faster on a panel, I use the industrial (oil-based) enamel and add a little hardner to it . . . I mean the activator that you put in automotive paints. I use it in ONESHOT too. You can pick up a little pint for under 20 bucks and you'd only need to use like, a teaspoon for a 4x8 if that much. It speeds up drying a good bit and makes the finish harder and longer lasting. Only add it to the amount of paint you need to use, because if there's any left over it will be 'solid' by morning. LOL, Ask me how I know!!
posted
I ask this EVERY TIME this subject comes up - and I never get an answer.
WHY is nobody using Ronan AquaCote water-based paints? I use them, I LOVE them - but am I missing something here?
Here is a water-based product from an industry player. It covers great. It dries quickly. It mixes well. It dries to a nice gloss. What else do you need?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gene, I do love the Ronan aqua stuff. Just didn't have any in the particular color that I needed so I used Glidden exterior gloss latex. That's what failed. I think it had something to do with the factory-finished MDO being very slick. Even after a good scuffing and cleaning, I was still able to peel most of the paint from the back (formerly front) of the sign today. It has had 6 days to cure and peeled off easier than weeding vynull. (The back had a scratch on it from the horses I was using, and I picked at it. Never had horses make marks on a sign before!) Here's a pic of the wad of paint: And here is a pic of the finished sign, painted entirely by hand in Ronan lettering enamels. I didn't even bother sketching this on, after all the grief. It's just freehanded. "Lodge" was supposed to look like birch bark but turned out kinda tiger-ish. I hope the kids like it: I cannot imagine adhering decals to flat-finished MDO. Lettering those flat boards the other day was bad enough. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I use satin finish on all my mdo signs, and I use pre-primed mdo also. To date, Ive never had a problem, especially with vinyl sticking. I use oracal vinyls, and they stick really well. I did have a few problems with semi gloss, but not gloss. I used Porter for a long time, but now use Kilz brand, and it works great. Nice looking sign Jill!
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a dimensional sign painted with Porter fail on me recently. I got tired of driving 40 mi. round trip to get the paint I like and switched to the Porter. No more. I never had a problem with the Coronado RustScat Acrylic Latex Enamels. They are just awesome. When dry it doesn't feel sticky. I use satin and semi-gloss.
I haven't used 1Shot in over 4 years and I have never had a latex problem until this recent deal with the Porter. It and Sherwin-Williams are too darn sticky in my opinion. I'm a believer in Coronado through and through.
I always sand the pre-primed boards with a random orbital sander and then wipe down several times with a wet wash cloth. I usually spray backgrounds as it is much faster and smoother for me. I hate hate hate rolling paint of any kind.
The Glidden paint is great for indoor walls. I use it and love it for that purpose. I don't think I would use it on an outdoor sign though. However, one of the first 4x8 signs I painted was done with Glidden and it still looks good today (7 years). So what do I know!!
Hope that helps!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
There's another tho't . . . just because the surface comes preprimed, does'nt necessarily mean you should'nt prime it again anyway after the sanding and such . . .
My favorite primer when I do like, redwood or cyrpess is 'Zinser 1-2-3'. It's so good it can even be used as a finish coat.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why pay more for preprimed MDO and then prime it?
In my opinion, there was just never enough primer on the edges to actually seal anything, so I would treat the edges and re-prime...and then it just didn't make any sense to have to redo what they were supposed to have doen, so I went back to raw MDO.
It's interesting that some have great success with one kind of paint and others have failures. Must be the climate or something.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Most of my suppliers only stock pre-primed boards because most of the idiots around here stick the vinyl right to the primer. In time, you can see the letters still sticking but all of the primer has washed away.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
As stated in the initial post, this is pre-finished. Not pre-primed. If I wanted it white I could have just applied vynull to it or hand-lettered it. It's called SignWhite ready-to-go, I get it thru Pioneer and Glantz. I never have a problem with it when painting it with 1S or Ronan....just Latex. I seal the edges with titebond and repaint, even tho they are pre-finished. For 20 years, I have primed and painted A/C plywood with less PITA than this stuff, I only use it on those government job site/safety signs which have to be hand lettered. This was a chunk left over from a job, to be used for a kids' treehouse. I strongly dislike MDO. These days, I use more Alumalite than anything. Love....Jill Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That was probably the problem Jill, putting latex over the pre finish. It was more than likely oil based, and might have caused the adhesion problem.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gene, I am with you, I use Ronan Aqua Cote all the time and you forgot to mention that vynull sticks to it like a mutha. Also with all the one shot problems and the waterbased quills available from Mack, I can get pretty good coverage from this stuff with a brush.
I should note that because Aqua Cote is acrylic and waterborne, it sticks right to vynull. I have done ragging or special techniques here at the school right on vynull and then cut it with the plotter.
In this photo is a car I did at the school where I painted the flag graphics directly onto vynull with Aqua Cote and Auto Air waterbourne and waterbased paints because I had to be making the graphics while they were painting the car. I had one day to turn this around.
and I wash my equipment and hands with water when I am done!
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic