posted
I've purchased some of Gary Anderson's Rhino Paint and because of a deadline some Sherwin Williams Super Paint on the advice of many from other topics on this board. The first coat of Super Paint went on, well lets just say I'm used to the coverage of Lettering Enamels. Will the second coat cover much better? I used a short nap Sureline roller for the first coat. Would brushing it on work better?
Do you typically use 2 coats or 3?
Using high gloss, do you scuff or sand between coats?
Do you use Floetrol? If so how much?
I saw Super Frog demonstrating that disaster paint, Deka Sign Enamel years ago, and when the paint in the lettering brush started to dry out, he gave it a quick light spray with Rapid Tac, which relaxed the brush like he just started. Any of you do that?
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Yes, the second and consecutive coats will give the coverage you are used to looking for.
Depending on what you are going to do on top of the paint (apply vinyl, letter, or gild), depends on what type of finish/smoothness you will need.
If you are just coating-out a background, and "smoothness" is not a big issue, than a roller would be fine.
If you are brushing, then you are really limited to how big of an area you can cover and still keep a "wet edge" on the paint, and not show too many brush strokes. (once again, all depends on the finish desired)
The more flat the paint, the more forgiving it is with brush marks. The more gloss the paint has, the more durable. (generarly speaking)
Too much info to type, but would be glad to talk if you have any questions.
15 years of waterbased paints and I've never looked back at oil based.
Peace, Bob 518-420-8147
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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If the Super Paint is dark, more than likely it's like Duncan said - it had a clear base and takes a lot of coats to get it to cover. The Porter (Rhino) will do a better job. It takes awhile to get used to the process and the finished look. It's never going to have the same look as Lettering Enamel...but it will last longer.
We use a 3/8" nap roller cover and it seems to work better than the shorter things.
We use a HVLP spray gun for larger areas and either a roller or brush for the smaller things. Two or three coats are normal, but they can be applied all in the same day, especially in the summer. If there are several jobs in progress it is not uncommon to go back and double coat immediately after the first coat.
It's just a personal thing, but I don't like the high gloss look, plus I can never get it to look even, so I use either Satin or Flat.
We sand lightly between coats, but it isn't absolutely necessary.
Floetrol with help the paint to smooth out more evenly, but will slow the drying time slightly. We use somewhere between a "tad" and a "smiggin".
Super Frog does a lot of things.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Like Raymond, we spray most everything with the HVLP, particularly the dimensional stuff. We usually get down about two to three coats before we are happy with it. We can also get those done in one day. Dark, clear base colors are a booger and take multiple coats.
We use Floetrol and water to thin just slightly when we spray. I barely thin it any more. I just crank up the pressure to around 40 psi and shoot. I have the strongest right arm and shoulder in town from holding that gun!!
Feel free to call me!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Dave.......some colours don't cover well.....as Raymond & Duncan said, clear base. However, there are dark colours that do cover well..........just put on one of those first & you'll save yourself several coats. I've been about 99% acrylic for 6 or 7 years now.....you're welcome to call 613-335-2510
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 475 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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To answer specific questions, I have never used floetrol because rhino paint (made by Porter) does not need it and I do not like to add foreign agents to my paint, it will change the performance. Sanding is needed to get the large bugs out that get stuck in the paint, It is not necessary for adhesion. I have always used 2 finish coats even when I used enamels, I believe that is what it takes to do a quality regardless of the kind of paint used. The only reason enamel covers so well is that the pigment is ground and mixed in the factory where they have control. The same is true of acrylic latex if you get a factory made paint it will cover just as well as enamel instead of a store mixed paint. I could write 10 pages about the use of latex and have in Signcraft. Using latex will become just as easy as enamel given a little time. Paints such as Deka which were developed for the sign industry dry much too fast and are impossible to use. My opinions: Having used latex exclusively for 20 years now, I would quit making signs if I had to go back to enamel. Enamels do not last anymore, they are much more expensive and toxic to use and give no longevity(since around 1990) in my experience. My goal has always been to give my customers the most long lived and maintenance free product I can and latex gives me that and it also gives me a healthier environment to work in, I can actually smell again after all those years around enamel. Unless you are lettering vehicles or windows, it escapes why people are still using enamel, the learning curve is very small. Much of this info and more is on rhinopaint.com. Good luck and keep the spirit alive. Gary Anderson
-------------------- Bloomington Design Gary Anderson Bloomington, IN Posts: 15 | From: Bloomington, IN USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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There you have it from the "horse's mouth"...sorry Gary, but you folks get the idea.
Mr. Anderson has and will always be my greatest hero. He introduced all of us to water based paints and showed us that art and signs could go together.
And he's just a good guy, too...maybe even swell.
[ July 01, 2008, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Coverage is always an issue. I have had great success with Ronan's Aquacote. It only comes in gloss however. For flat paints, name brand (Dulux,Kelly Moore...) 100% acrylics are recommended. Recoat time is a lot less than oil which is good since you need at least 2 coats or more to get a nice finish. As far as using rapid tac, I have used it in the past but find good ol water works fine for me especially if using Aquacote.
-------------------- Kevin Mann SignMann Sacramento, Ca Posts: 80 | From: sacramento california | Registered: Jan 2007
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So what are the differences between Latex and Acrylic and those that claim both with a hyphen?
Porter products are not available here so we've been trying the transition with Ben Moore. Yesterday the seventh coat of a dark teal went on some letters and might be the first coat to look opaque.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6716 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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OK...I'll take a shot at this. Kent Smith may jump in an give the real answer but this is the simple, country version.
If I remember what Kent told me one time, latex refers to a wide range of water based paints but acrylic are paints that have a different chemical makeup that allows them to be more elastic, hence they expand and contract with whatever surface they are applied to. "Latex" paints do not have this quality.
Some of the less expensive varieties are called acrylic latex because they combine a little of both.
That is why the folks that know always say to select 100% acrylics.
Really, I have no idea but I know just enough to be dangerous. Stick with 100% acrylic. Why?...because Gary Anderson said so.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I also do not understand why some poeple are still using one-shot, mathews and so forth. and Sam, no. The more expensive the paint does NOT mean the best. I have used Behr from Home depot, benjamin Moore both are good paints.
A majority of our stuff is prayed. We dont use expensive primers. If we are spraying a dark color, I may tint my primer. If panels are rolled, I use a foam roller. puts a thinner coat on dry quicker so I can reapply. I would rather do 1-3 thin ones as opposed to slabbing it on with a thick nap.
Im getting to where Im spraying latex on alot of our steel work. Ive also used it on aluminum and pvc, works great and clean-up is alot easier and it damn sure last longer
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Coverage problems.......... Rick, any deep rich colour comes in a clear base so don't cover well. If you tint your top coat of primer, then find a "muddier" version of your top colour to go on next, usually one coat (2 at the most) will cover. I use one that's about the colour of new blue jeans under the dark blues & forest greens. The undercoat will affect the topcoat colour a bit......for instance, if I wanted my dark green topcoat with a bit more yellow, I'd use a dark olive undercoat. You should be able to get half a dozen colours that will work for almost any topcoat. Look for a fairly dark colour that's halfway down your paint colour card in the store.
I use Para (Canadian), Porter & Rhino only, unless forced to use another brand. Ben Moore is nice paint but has teflon in it to keep stuff from sticking on it. Keeps paintmask from sticking to it as well, so it's of no use to me. Any of the paints that have teflon in them don't give a nice edge with a quill, either.
I just had a customer insist on a BM factory mix colour. Went about 3" and saw it would take 7 coats..........I mixed the same colour in Para (covered in 2 thin coats) & then the BM over top. Customer's happy & I didn't have to lie.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 475 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
This is a great post with a lot of good info being shared about something I am passionate about,...water based paints.
Let's keep it rolling.
Some tips for spraying water based.
High gloss is more difficult to spray (more difficult to get a smooth finish) than a satin or a flat, but I firmly believe it will last the longest. All personal preference.
I spray high gloss exclusively and after it dries, it has a nice satin look anyway. (best longevity, nice satin look).
I thin with water only. No Flotrol. Example: 6-8 oz's of paint and 1-2 oz's of water.
Any color seems to cover well when spraying.
The higher the humidity, the better the paint will level and lay smooth.
I have a small paint booth to spray a 10-12ft long sign, 6ft wide and about 10 ft tall. It has an exhaust fan to draw the paint out. If I do not turn on the exhaust fan and spray the sign and leave it in that moist environment for about 30 minutes, the paint levels nicely. After the paint levels, I turn on the fan to clear the booth. If I were to spray while the exhaust fan was on, the paint would dry too quickly and would not level as well.
If you have a way to monitor the humidity in your shop, and a way to increase it when you spray, the paint will level better. A Sling Psychrometer is an accurate way to check.
More to follow.
Peace, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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![[Mad]](mad.gif)
All you can do is keep coating it til it's covered.
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