posted
Hello everybody! Earlier posted this question on "The Hand Lettering Forum"
If I would have to buy a good three dimensional router and software program for wich brand and series should i go? And what does it cost? My interest is normal v-carved signs, wich i then could gild. But also eloborate 3-d work, wich after completed i could redefine by hand.... Ofcourse there are some cheap ones and some incredible expensive ones. Small, medium and large cnc routers.... I think a cnc router which can handle sheets of 122 x 244cm (48 inch x 96 inch) will absolutely do, or is this to big or to small?
I remember my dad, 20 years ago, allways wanted to buy a router, but my mom simply asked him if 'this new toy' of him would earn back its money. "Eeuhmmm.... nope...." Most of our earnings were derived from those simple vinyl graphics, so it was not an interesting investment.
Since i saw some of your inspiring works in combination with the sandblasted textures in wood or hdu i know here in Nederland (Europe) i can create my own market. But before i buy the wrong machine and software i have to know which is which and what is what. Because in Nederland we do not use routers in the 3d-manner i see on your web-sites i would like to hear from you what to look for and eventually buy. And in combination with a good workshop at one of you guys and dolls i can start learning to expand my woodcarving interests.
[ June 22, 2008, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Erik Winkler ]
If you want to attend a good workshop, I can highly reccemmend Dan Sawatzky's "Router Magic" workshop, in British Columbia Canada.
I attended his workshop in february, and it is a class that would benefit owners (or future owners)of any brand of CNC router, and software.
In my case, I was already inclined to go with a Multicam and Enroute software, which is also what Dan uses, and I was able to examine at the workshop. I did follow through with that plan & will have my Multicam in a month.
As to the age old question that your mom asked, "will it pay for itself?" ...well, that is going to be my responsibility, but it is of no doubt that it can be made to earn it's keep in the hands of a good craftsman, with good business sense also being of critical importance. I have no doubt I will be able to inject enough craftsmanship and business sensibilities to make my decision a profitable one.
I have been warned that the learning curve is steep, and I also know the business end of selling new product types will take some time, so the question of how soon it pays for itself is the unknown factor, but I am prepared to be patient in that regard & enjoy the learning process & the personal development process of taking my craft to a new level for the next few years, without worrying if the profitability of the machine reaches a break even cash flow position right away.
posted
I'd recommend a couple of things when considering a CNC router.
Good software will be critical, no matter what brand of router you decide to purchase. The software will determine how far you go and how fast you get there. I recommend Enroute which I personally use. I believe there are few limits with this software... save your own imagination. They are also a merchant here and help support this site.
As far as routers... once again I recommend the brand I chose MultiCam. Its a top end machine which will serve you well. They too are merchants here and help support this site.
Back when I first started researching routers and software I found it daunting and confusing to say the least. Specs and terms varied, each sales person touted theirs as the very best.
I talked with many, many owners and users of a wide variety of machines before I selected my final choices.
I was very concerned about the costs of course and about selling the product I would ultimately produce on the machine. In the end I was more than satisfied, finding I paid for the investment in a much shorter time than I anticipated.
If you have any specific questions give me a buzz and I'll do my best to answer them for you.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hello Erik, I have had my 49x96 router for about 14 months now. It will pay for it's self. I do a lot of wood & HDU signs. I enjoy hand carving the extras into my projects. I bought V-Carve Pro software ($500). I can't say I need the expensive 3-D software yet. I want it, but I don't need it. There are a lot of ways to add details to your work without the extra expense of outragously expesive software. I bought a 3 month old ShopBot with a spindle for 2/3 the price of a brand new one. This type of machine will do 95% of any type of work you can put to it! The learning curve is not that hard at all. The hardest part is learning the expensive software. I don't even want to have to take classes just to learn software. Maybe someday, but not yet. You can't go wrong on any type of router. I would never buy anything less than a 4x8'. I don't have a vacuum table, I simply clamp it down. If your planning on a lot of production work, You might want one of those high priced routers with all the bells and whistles. Not me, I enjoy making custom stuff, 1 at a time.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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Buy the most you can get your hands on. 50K is probably the starting point.
You can get a Shopbot w/3d software for about 22k but that's the bottom of the line.
Look at: MultiCam Techno Isel ShopSabre EZ Router AXYZ Shopbot
Most folks on this forum don't have much experience with different machines. They, for the most part, have owned only one brand. Each loves theirs brand to death. Until they don't.
I'd suggest you stay from the Chinese imports. They are very cheap and look good on the surface but. My good friend Gary Beckwith has worked on a couple. Trying to get them going.
Once again buy as much as you can afford.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Good advice so far...just a quick note that one critical factor for you especially, will be service. Typically when you are deciding between two or three comparable products or pieces of equipment, the deciding factor will be the committment and dedication of your vendor and the service they can provide.
-------------------- Gary Boros SIGNWORKS STUDIOS LLC Monroe, Connecticut, USA Posts: 264 | From: Monroe, Connecticut, USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Thanks so far for the info! But what is the model i should go for without getting bankrupt? CNC Routers from Multicam: 1000 Series, 3000 Series, 5000 Series or MT Series? Is it not a good way to invest in a second hand router from a brand that is not immediatly top of the bill; like John Arnott mentioned?
posted
3D work is so much fun and allows you to create your own niche with what you either can or want to do.
3 things to consider in my point of view... The market / operator The software The machine
If you find yourself in a market where the potential for 3D work is there, by all means go for it. If you think this is the kind of work that is fun to do but you anticipate few orders for, there are some smaller machines that I have not tryed but I know are there. You have the responsibility of doing your homework by looking at what is available in your area along with the support available there too. Now for the operator, education is the main focus. Those machines are great tools but they don't design or pick colors or make miracles... Attending workshops is a good idea. Investing in knowledge and design should be a must, otherwise a CNC just becomes an expensive jigsaw...
Software, I use EnRoute Pro 4 as well. I haven't used the other ones out there but have talked to some users and the general word is that they pretty much all do similar thing, but EnRoute is more "user-friendly". Personnally, I do recommend it...
If you plan on using this technology on a daily scale, there are bigger and faster machines out there. I personnally use an AXYZ 4008 (4 x 8) that I bought in 1997 and still runs like the day I bought it. For lighter work, I know AXYZ also has a 1m x 1m machine called the Millenium. I have worked on one of those a few times and they do the trick well.
Key thing: do your homework well because it is an important investment and you will have it for a long time.
posted
I know a few folks who bought a second hand router... they missed out on company support and warrantee which is important when you first start out. They ended up selling their used machines and buying new within a short time. The learning curve is steepest when you first turn on the machine. Its all doable but it depends on what your time is worth to you.
In my case I am not a computer guy nor particularly mechanically oriented. Setup, training and full support from a reputable dealer was critical and appreciated! And it was worth every penny I paid and then some.
If you are going for a MultiCam I would recommend a 3000 series. Its heavier built than the 1000 series... servos instead of steppers, and it will last longer than a lighter weight machine.
If you can make a router pay in your shop then go for one that will serve you for many years. The extra you pay won't be important in the long term.
If you have specific questions let me know.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
After having slept over it again i have two questions: 1. I have already contacted Multicam for a dealer nearby. And am wondering if it is a good thing to take a workshop at Grandpa Dan BEFORE i aquire my router. 2.I am even thinking that the problem here in Nederland is that people who do own a 3d router do not have the creative mind to go a few steps further than their 2d work. So is it a realistic idea to design the work in the enroute software package and send the finished design-files by mail and let the routing work done externally. Or is this asking for trouble?
Erik
[ June 23, 2008, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Erik Winkler ]
posted
I am glad I attended Dans workshop before making my purchase. I had never spent much time in a shop with a router, where I could study their set-up & ask questions. It has been complicated to order the various additional pieces of equipment & to build out my shop for this purchase. having been to Dan's shop has helped immensly in just that regard.
Also, it is not out of the realm of possibility to design & sub out router work. I think the basic stuff would be easier to hand off to another production person, but if you want to design complex 3D stuff, besides the need for the vendor to be using that same software, I would be very cautious who I trusted with my 3D design work.
posted
I think your getting ready to buy a router and learn some new stuff. It won't be easy, but it's worth it.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I think 60.000 to 100.000 dollars is probably too much to invest in a totally new trade of the signbusiness i am in right now.... I am trying to seek for solutions to outsource the routing, but do the designing myself. The learning curve is still there, but only the investment in the machine not yet. I also contacted the main supplier in holland for router letters and they said that they did had three or four multicams (3000 and the 5000 series). They also had the enroute software, but since they only do 2d letter routing they only got the simplest enroute software package available.... So even when i come with my completed designs i am still in trouble. They also said they did not want to rout in wood, because of the dust it creates and dust with the plastics (acrylaat) they use will stay on there sheets due to static electricity and will in the end scratch there plastic sheets. Hummmm what to do now?... Hungry, but a bit stuck right now :-(...... And multicam did not yet replied on my 'dealers in the netherlands' mail yet. But then again i just started the investigation and Rome wasn't build in one day...
[ June 24, 2008, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Erik Winkler ]
posted
I wrote a reply to you a couple of days ago, but while taking a 5 minute break for a sanwich the computer restarted and the post was lost!
I like Rene have an AXYZ, I have a 4010 1525mm x 3050mm (5'x10']
Its not eally the machine but who's driving it, you don't need a high end machine in the signbusiness, and there are many here turning out great work on Shopbots, using Enroute or Artcam or even the program from Vectric, made by guys that developed Artcam.
I guess you have to think about the direction you want your business to go in, and you have to be open for the new doors that will open as a result of buying a router.
We have all been there, and I guees folks will always be defensive about their purchases.
Look around at used machines you might find a woodworking shop that has a machine without a toolchanger, and want to upgrade from their "standard" machine....that would be something to look at.
I know a guy up here that has 2 AXYZ machines and a Multicam 5000 he just bought, one of the axyz machines might be for sale, he's not that far from you. Contact your AXYZ dealer in Holland, and if you get no joy contact the Canadian owned factory in the UK, ask about trade-ins etc do the same with Multicam, and then compare your quotes and specs.
We have had our AXYZ for 3.5 years now have done all sorts from big 3D projects to aluminium fronts for lightboxes,engraving, worked with 12mm Lexan, acrylics, MDF,plywoods, lots of aluminium, have never thought, its a big shame I never had a toolchanger, even on 3D you get away using a large bullnose for roughing and a small for finishing off.
A vacuum table is a big time saver, misting/cooling for aluminiumk work is a big plus, you can buy a kit and add yourself later if you need. AXYZ do a Toolpath Studio software which is basically an older Signlab, with output menu's for steering the table from the program, you can use AXYZ DNC for larger 3D nc files so the table just picks up info as and when it needs, instead of having to send a large file directly to the machine.
A multicam 3000 comes with a steel gantry, and servo motors, an AXYZ comes with a solid steel frame and a similar system for moving the gantry but their gantry is aluminium, in signmaking you are not looking at the same tolerances that you might be doing making aluminium engineering parts etc, so its abit overkill.
Go to a distributor, get them to run a smaller 3D or a part job, and whatever you might be interested in, take the same file to Multicam or AXYZ or Gerber or whoever, and compare for yourself.
3D jobs take hours whatever machine you are using.
THere are so many things you can do with a router its hard with 2 fingers to explain all here, do some research, come back and tell us what you have found, and I'm sure you'll get more help and tips, you can always call me or alot of the other guys if you want that type of communication.
I have had crap service from our dealer here, but that hasn't put me off, I just deal directly with the UK on the oddtime I have needed help, it was our dealer that wanted, $1300 for a DNC module which the guys in the factory sent for free, it was our dealer that wanted $4000 for a spindle reapir that cost €165 by sending it directly to the factory myself in Italy.
So go in with your eyes wide open, its a great asset to any shop.
As for Dans course....forget it complete waste of time. Just kidding, that is something well worth attending, you will learn loads, be greatly inspired, all fired up with confidence, and amongst some of the nicest Letterheads I have met, really great people that want to give you all they can and more. I'm looking forward to a return trip.
I would say however that a trip to Dan is going to be more worthwhile, after you have bought a machine and got to grips with the basics, as this is another level from the $50,000 jigsaw.
On our course one of the attendees, ahdn't had so much router experience and was perhaps a step or 2 behibd the rest of us, that said I was at the first one, Dan may have tailored things to suit all, its a hard balance with so many doing so many different things with routers software and business set ups, to set a course thats not too basic, and then again not super advanced for novices. It is a big introduction to the way Dan does things the way he thinks, and lots of hands on, and many hours available to sit and discuss everything you could ever think about with many years experience spread across those taking part.
posted
I went the used option but like Dan mentioned you will not have a tech to set it up and run it to make sure every things working right. Also you will not have any one to ask question about the machine and output at your location. I'm a gearhead and love computers so I like to know how everything works inside and out from machine to software. I did lots of research about servos,steppers,ball screws,drive gears,etc. before making the decision.
Also like everyone said its the operator that make it better than a fancy jig saw.
If you wanted to go the used "rout" Kevin over at cncrouterstore.com is a great guy to work with and will keep an eye out for what will fit your needs in a machine.
I went with and older Multicam MG (compared to the new 3000 series of today) that was in great shape. Good luck with your machine purchase and do your home work.
my 2 cents
-at
-------------------- Aaron Taylor A Router Works Pensacola, Fl Posts: 69 | From: Pensacola, Fl | Registered: Apr 2008
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-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
For what it's worth, we went for a 2nd hand machine. The big advantage is price, compared with new. (This will rout 3.6 x 2.0 metres). The big problem is all the unknowns- is it worn out, or sloppy in the joints, who'll help set it up, or fix it...etc
Fortunately I found a local tech guy (yes, even out here!) who has been great.
The learning curve is 'fun' !
It was an Esab router, converted or upgraded in 2001 as a Tekcel. I'm still a terrible newbie here though who knows nothing!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Will parts and service will be available years from now. For that reason I’d suggest staying with one of the old line companys. While some of the import China router, now making their way on the market are very attractive, who knows if they will be there for the long haul. I’d be careful.
There’s some equipment which should be included in your initial order. One example is a tool changer. This isn’t an easy add on. Although expensive, it should be considered up front. A vacuum table can be a real time saver and can be or added later but it’s also better when made at the factory. Gantry height isn’t that easy to change either.
It’s good to see how Ian, who has purchased an older unit, can still get the materials and parts. That’s so important.
Thinking for the long term should be a consideration.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I have just been told about a used Multicam 1270mm x 2500mm no tool changer but comes with vacuum pump, I still maintain that a toolchanger is not a must in the sign business.
Its 10 years old and they want 60,000kr for it, its in good condition, I don't know much else, that is the same as $10,000 or €6300, which would be a perfect entry machine contact Jan Heintz at Signcom, its only a 1-2 day truck ride to Holland www.signcom.se
[ June 26, 2008, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Henry Barker ]
I emailed 'Signfoam' and 'Duracaps' for sending me some HDU samples and the book "Mastering the Art of Dimensional Signmaking". After weeks... no reply!
I emailed 'Coastal Enterprises' for some HDU samples. After weeks... no reply!
I emailed 'Multicam' for some information and a nearby dealer in The Netherlands. After a week... no reply!
Seems that these American companies do not want to sell or do not have a new-business policy.
posted
Erik, I'll post our 'interesting' saga with the router here, as a matter of education or entertainment as the case may be...!
I'd been looking for a while at getting something- I've done many hand routed signs, and several 3D fabricated HDU ones, and also manually cut out letters to stick on buildings. All this was efficient enough for us doing it by hand, but I could see an opening to fit a router in to our 'arsenal'- as long as it wasn't too pricey.
I knew nothing about cnc stuff, though I subscribe to the cnc-zone forums, and looked at downloading the free plans to build-your-own, but the electronics is another issue. Not having a router a reading about the controls & software etc is like learning another language.
I looked at the cheap chinese stuff on ebay, and some good 2nd hand stuff on ebay also. I spoke to dealers with new & 2nd hand routers for sale. All were either too cheap for comfort, or too expensive for the current budget, or had other unknowns- like age & reliability questions.
I asked a few questions here, too, and received some great replies, and also great emails from supporters. (Thanks!)
I finally found a router in Sydney (about 1200 km south of here) and after enquiring about it, it turns out I'd met the current owner at a Letterheads-Oz meet about 10 years ago, and I also personally knew its original owner- so I had good vibes about it from that aspect.
The machine started life brand new in 1990 as an Esab Signmate 1000 with motorised x & Y axes, and a pneumatic(air) Z axis-either up or down like a plotter. Esab make profile & plasma cutters so this was big, strong & heavy. I did not need that much size or weight, but I didn't have too many options, and many who get a router plan later to get a biger one (kind of like digital printers!)
IN 2001 it was gutted & upgraded with an aussie brand- Tekcel- controllers, servos, a motorised Z axis, and a general overhaul of all the working bits to bring it to 2001's computer standards.
IN 2002, the bloke I bought it from bought it from the first owner, and he bought Enroute to go with it. He only decided to sell it in April this year after he got a new contract to keep doing what he does, which really needed a bigger, faster machine with tool changer as well. He mostly does a kind of cabinetmaking, casino shopfitting stuff nowdays, with LEDs, vacuum formed airbrushed fancy signs, and lots of poker machine bases.
Anyway in early May, my son and I flew to Sydney to look at 'the beast', to see it working, to get a crash course in how to make it go, and some of its idiosyncracies, and to know what it looked like before it was pulled to bits. We flew home late that night.
It took Glenn anout three days to pull it down, strap it to three 10 x 4 ft pallets, and then the rigmarole of getting a freight company to collect the pallets was incredible. They sent a truck down and the driver decided he could not fit all three pallets on it without being oversized. The truck went back empty. They waited till they had an open-decked semitrailer going past, a few days later, and picked it up then, and took it in to the depot in Sydney. It sat there for three days till they had a truck with mezzanine floors inside upon which they could sit these pallets, and was freighted to Brisbane. It spent three days there till they had an open decked semi trailer again going to Toowoomba, and finally five weeks after buying it, I was able to take the truck in to collect it from town. It fitted on our 22 ft body-truck easily...so I don't know what the other carriers were carrying on about. Anyway, for a company that sends 15 trucks a day to & from Sydney, this took 10 days to get here.
We could not lift the pallets off with our forklift on the tractor- too heavy, so we undid them on the truck, and lifted the parts off singly.
It took 2 days to clear the shed to make room for it. (It's still a congested mess at the mooment too!)
We dynabolted the first legframe to the floor, measured & bolted the next, then the next, then the far end, then lifted the beds into place, and they didn't line up, so we un-dynabolted the legs from the floor, shifted them, rebolted them, bolted the beds on, botrrowed a laser level, and levelled the beds, then fitted the rails, which didn't line up, so we undid the beds & lifted them out, unbolted the legs from the floor, shifted them again, fitted the rails FIRST (we should have done it first, originally, but didn't know), laser levelled them, re-dynabolted the legs down (the concrete floor now has lots of spare holes in it!) then fitted the beds and levelled them and bolted them down, then fitted the sacrificial bed- we left the vacuum table off as powering the big motor would be tedious, and that's how the former owner used it, anyway.
It took five of us to lift the gantry up and get it onto the rails neatly, and then half a day to get the wiring sorted out, the serial leads to the PC in the office, the 3 phase speed controller, & in-line power filter & on-off button installed & neatly wired in, and the tool length sensor wired up. That was interesting.
I had been practising with Enroute since the day we bought it- I brought the PC home by air. We tried to upgrade it from Enroute bacis to Plus, but it wouldn't upgrade. After many phone calls we finally succeeded- there needed to be an upgrade for the dongle installed first, and the former Enroute and the short-cuts on the desktop & quicklaunch toolbar had to be deleted- you couldn't just install it over the top, or the former version kept going and not the newer version.
I was surprised initially about the lack of response to my email enquiries from Enroute. After a month, I can say the help has been really good, but initially- it was dreadful- as if I did not exist. I wanted to get something that'll do full 3D carving, and I downloaded the Vectric trials- impressive, and inexpensive, but the Enroute is more user-friendly I feel, even though waay more costly. (I already had Rhino, so had some familiarity with 3D software) Anyhow, I now had Enroute 3.0 Plus with the machine, and finally managed to then upgrade it to 3.3 with no issues.
I was keen to get the router routing...no such luck! It homed backwards, the limit switches didn't stop it, it did all sorts of things wrong. I rechecked my setups, and followed wires everywhere. I was learning a lot, and fast. It seemed OK after I tested the limit switches and found one faulty, and one with a tiny short circuit in it. This took a minute to type, but a few hours to identify and locate. I replaced the faulty switch, but the new one wouldn't fit where the old one sat, so I had to drill & thread-tap a new pair of holes & fit it.
It still didn't work. It tried to rout, but gave me cryptic "!VZ0" messages which I later learned was because I never told it what feed rate to use on the Z axis. I then retried, fixing MY fault, and got "Z-Limit" messages- again I had inadvertently zeroed it near the upper limit, and it was trying to reverse up to get away from the bed but couldn't as it was already up. This took a half a day to identify and get someone who could help explain it to me- MY error again!
So, now it should have been perfect...I did a test run, and it wouldn't home properly- it kept going backwards and off the rack.
I tracked down a relatively local fellow who was the Qld expert on the Tekcel machines, and he was terrific, explaining how to diagnose various things.
I got it to go into diagnostic mode, and tested the axes, and could control all of them, which ruled out the individual axis control boards as being faulty. Still it did weird things, and not always the same things. It seemed that the limit switches were still wonky. I tested them in diagnostics, and they were OK. I noticed though that the encoder display for each axis was weird- the numbers did not change when I moved the Y axis servo, yet when operating the X axis servo, both X & Y's numbers changed.
In the meantime, I'd spent a day hand-routing numbers & letters in railway sleepers, and I sneezed and accidentally pressed a wrong button and erased the flash memory totally- no program image, no memory nothing- all dead.
(Each evening I tried to make progress with the machine, you see)
I did find the flash updater, and eventually got the memory & program image reinstated. It's funny how a wrong road looks familiar a second time, and it's easy to make the same mistake again- I erased it all accidentally the next day, too. It was becoming second nature now, reinstalling the Eprom memory. (I had better learn to forget how I keep erasing it!)
The errors in the encoder display were constantly inconsistant. I'd eliminated the major axes controller board as being crook, when I got hold of a new one to try, and things were no different (fortunately, as it cost nearly $2000, so I could return it).
The mistakes had to be something physical, I figured. I had been removing plugs & leads, and checking them for continuity, and this was slow- you need a couple of sewing needles to poke down into the fine holes in some plugs. Slowly I was eliminating possible sources of error.
Finally the feedback leads on the Y axis servo seemed bent- maybe this happened in transit as the load was tied down in Sydney...but removing them, straightening them, and replugging them in, and also doing the X axis servo suddenly removed all silliness from the system and it was 'normal' again!
Yay! This was on Monday night- a great birthday present!
Last night I set the bed to be skimmed (levelled), and learned a lot about resetting skim paths & loose bits, and too-high feed-rates, and stalling spindles and resetting origins, and we eventually remedied all stuff-ups we made- all except one.
I went to try & rout a 'real' job and the collet is jammed in the spindle. It's a 3HP Perske spindle, and the nut or collar is now off, but the collet is still stuck, so that's the next job- but at least the bed is skimmed level, and the software & all sensors are intact & working properly! I think I have a fair working knowledge of how to identify, eliminate & get around just about anything that could go wrong, now! I wasn't planning on learning so much in that area, so fast, when I bought the machine! IN hindsight, it was all worth learning, though.
We have only single phase power here, so the 3 phase spindle needs to be driven by our 3-phase diesel generator, until such time as we can afford a rotary phase converter- it's about $2800 for a solid state you-beaut one.
The vacuum table was removed to give more clearance under the gantry. That motor is an 8 hp thing that weighs a lot. I'll leave it off for now. We'd need a heap of PVC pipe & glue to get the vac bed back on & in order. The tubes are all steel, the pipes from them are PVC.
So, it's about 8 weeks since we paid for the router, about 4 weeksnsince it landed here, and to date, it has not earned a cent, but that's about to change soon!
Another aspect that is going to be really useful is the plotter blade holder- I'll have to make one, but the ability to plot through the cover plastic on dibond, alupanel, colourbond signwhite etc will be great.
Sizewise, the machine is set to rout a bed size of 205 x 360 cm. The actual bed is wider, but the router can't reach the edges, as it has to sit between the rails. It's also much longer- the rails are 16 ft long, but you can't use the back part due to the triangulation of the gantry's driven edge- the X axis is driven on the left side only- by rack. The Y is rack driven, the Z is screw-driven. Overall the router takes up 3.1 x 5 metres of floor space- the gantry hangs out over the left edge by quite a bit.
Anyway, despite the issues with it, and the unplanned technical learning curve, it's still, in my mind, a good machine with a lot of life, and it was a good buy- they built them to last in those days! I just don't plan to move it in a hurry!
When we have a windfall, I'd like to get Enroute 4 Pro, but in the meantime, it's got a lot to earn us to get back to square one before we can think of buying it- unless it can be a resident's prize draw here that I could win!!! I'll go back to dreaming, in the meantime.
First though, I have a collet to remove. I probably could have done it in less than the time it took to type this, but I hope this'll give others an insight to what can happen when you buy a secondhand router! (no regrets)
I now know of four other people with the Tekcel cnc routers, with the same drivers as this, and all speak very highly of them. Origianl email replies to the company were not responded to at all. Eventually after tracking down a real person via a secondary company, the help has been wonderful, by phone & email- even moreso that I could fix it myself.
Saga over, back to your thread, now, Eric!
(edited to attend to some typos)
[ July 01, 2008, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
The 'saga' Ian speaks of is one I've heard often from folks who buy used routers. I've heard worse too unfortunately with no happy ending.
Back when I was reseaching the purchase of a machine for our shop I simply didn't want to go there. I'm not the sort who enjoys that type of thing in the least. I want to be creative with my router not be an expert in how to assemble, trouble shoot and keep the thing running.
While Ian undoubltably saved a considerable amount of cash on his used machine he paid in many other ways. Time is money, at least in our shop.
We all make our choices and then must live with the results.
I look forward to seeing the work Ian cranks out when all the bugs are sorted out!
Go Ian go!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have nothing, no email reply, no samples no books potential new machine nothing. Thanks Ian for this teerible storie ;-) I have already been in this situation as we wanted to be the first quineypig in Europe to try a solvent printer. Took 6 months fooling around, 5 m2 prints done and 3 years of our lives. Never again. 'New and full of service', that's my motto.
posted
Well, it earned its keep today, routing in hdu & in perspex. To me, the problems were all a part of the learning curve- I'll regognise the issue if it ever happens again, and have a fair idea of the solution.
My only gripe was that I expected it to know the material thickness from the defined plate, and I had to reset the Z height each time for each different bit of material, 10mm, 25 mm or 30mm. I was hoping the router would interpret the height from the file itself, as it knows its bed level, compared with the tool length sensor.
I'm still happy with it- it does a lovely job (at last!)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Erik that second hand Multicam I mentioned went to a woodworker next door to a friend of mine that has a 2x3m AXYZ, on the other side of Sweden Gothenburg, he set the deal up. That was a very good deal, and the machine was very little used in very good order, so you can get a good used bargain.
Why not contact www.axyz.co.uk in the UK its a wholly owned subsidiary of the factory in Canada, talk to them compare things.
I wish Ian all the luck in the world, but ESAB are a Swedish company known the world over for welding equipment, both manual and robots. I'm sure that once he gets up and running things willbe OK, but there is a huge difference buying something that has been rebuilt like that, than buying a machine thats been sitting in a signshop or joinery a few years, and basically as it was designed from the factory.
If you buy a usedmachine from a dealer you will get some sort of guarantee, you will also have back up from them, if you buy a used machine from another shop, get to see it running first often there are no problems, they are just upgrading to a lrager machine, a faster machine or a machine with toolchanger, what can go wrong on an old Multicam or AXYZ? If the controller and router software is in order, you have the motors, and the spindle, spindles can be repaired and rebuilt, just gone through that, and the rest is pretty bulletproof.
AS for HDU's, a few years ago I tried together with 2 other companies,to buy a container load from Signfoam, they weren't interested, same price for one sheet, as for a container load, funny attitude, I think the Us market is big enough so the interest for Europe is insignificant?
That said the germans Manfred and Marcus have had more sucess, and do stock Signfoam www.timbersigns.com
If you want Precision Board Hartbrights in the UK buy by the container. Contact Bill Rae www.hartbrights.co.uk
There are hdu products here in Europe in differing sheet sizes and densities, alot made for protype modelling, and far superior to both PB and SF but in smaller sheet sizes and thicker blocks.
and Ciba in the UK, and Technipur up here, so there are alternatives.
I share your frustration withlack of interest from suppliers at times, but we're all human, I don't always get back to people, not because I don't want too, just that the hours in the day don't stretch far enough at times.
Of course if you want new go for it, but I got the impression earlier that you were unsure of your budget.
posted
Erik... I hear from whence you are coming. No matter what machine you anticipate you are getting, NOTHING will prepare you for the brain damage that will unfold in terms of 3D... that is why only a handful of people "around the world, get into this (3D) field... and it really is a "whole new world"...but that is what sets you apart. I have minimal $$$$ cost programs to allow me to learn at a discounted rate rather than spending thousands of $$$$ for me to say "this is all too hard". I spend little , learn much. Dan the man , God bless his soul, has spent a lot of money, money that I do not have. BUT... I aspire to compete with him artistically... just at a lower $$$ value... which IS possible. And he is the best. My style just differs from his. That's personal. It's a little like landing a plane with no training... get the right person on the other side of the line and you will land safely. Touche' if you have the desire... you can make a program dance. Do things that they (the programmers) say is not possible. There are programs that suit certain people and the way their brain works. Many call it "intuitive" but that's not necessarily what they really mean. I tried 7 or 8 website designing programming programs before I found one that "worked" for me. So too 3D. Find a person who has a router that has a passion that can share the outcome, and say "let's do it". All will be solved.
Cheers - Gregg
-------------------- Gregg Sydney Signworks (02) 9837 1198 Schofields NSW Australia Posts: 368 | From: Schofields | Registered: May 2007
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In our last router magic workshop we had the privilege of having Jeff Hartman here as a guest teacher. He and his brother wrote EnRoute. Jeff and his brother wrote the first version of the program as sign makers for there wasn't anything out there that did the things they wanted to do in their signshop with a router.
While he certainly knows just about everything the routing program is capable of doing he watched with great interest the things I was doing with it. He was facinated with my way of thinking, of how I did my work arounds, outsmarting the limitations of the program and router as they applied to my particular style.
We had many long discussions in those three days and he took plenty of notes. As he left he told me he wants to make about 20 additions and changes to the program so it will be easier for me to use in the future. He saw where we were limited and thinks they can ease those concerns.
Many of the improvements will come in the area of use with a drawing tablet making the program even easier and more intuitive to use in the future.
I'm excited about that! I also hope to continue to work with them, pushing the boundaries in other areas the future. With the amazing minds they have in regard to writing computer code its my hope we can come up with some amazing innovations.
I'm not a computer guy and not very mechanically inclined either. I am passionate about creating outrageous signs however. A good router and software allow me to concentrate on this task and not worry about the machine nor software. While the investment was certainly intensive, making that choice allows me to concentrate on my art, which in the process has allowed me to earn back my investment in a very short time.
The flip side of the coin is to look for a bargain and then spend a lot of time and effort making it work. You pay or you pay, there is no other way. In my case I paid up front and got to work immediately on the things I love!
There's plenty of roads to every destination...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I apologize but I never received an email from you. I just went to your web site and sent you an email through there, but if you could please resend to me, I will take care of your questions.
Sincerely, Kellie
-------------------- Kellie Miller Customer Service Mgr. Coastal Enterprises Company Mfg. of Precision Board (800) 845-0745 www.precisionboard.com hdu@precisionboard.com Posts: 118 | From: Orange, CA | Registered: Feb 2002
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I took the liberty of popping an email off to MultiCam this morning regarding your somewhat frustrated request for information. I got a call back within minutes. They too had no record of your email but will be in touch shortly I'm told.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thank you very much for your reply. And Dan again for your input. Tonight at 5 o 'clock i will go to Belgium for a week. So i will read the mail(s) a bit later...
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