posted
I’m in need of some professional help here.
I am brand new to this site and the entire sign-making industry in general. I am 29 years old and I am a high school art teacher in upstate New York. I attended the Columbus College of Art and Design in Columbus, Ohio and majored in Illustration/Animation. I live in a small town (roughly 1200 people) and have done very basic, primitive signs for local businesses, (an Oil Museum, local Golf Course, the School, etc.). Now that people are seeing some of my work, which is total crap compared to the quality of work that I’m seeing on this website, I’m starting to get bigger jobs that require a much more professional approach.
I am embarrassed to say that my signs are done on pressure-treated, ¾” plywood, covered with 3 to 4 coats of latex, white primer from Sherwin Williams and then painted on with One-Shot enamel sign paint. This sufficed for meaningless signs that I never signed my name to, but now that I’ve been called up to the big leagues I would like to learn how to properly construct a professional-looking sign.
I have scoured this site for many hours so far and have been blown away by not only the professionalism of the signs, techniques and ability, but also the willingness of everyone here to help each other. I can’t think of a better place to start gathering information. I am hoping to become a student of the craft and ultimately integrate the history and process of sign making into my high school curriculum, which will then lead to community-based projects where my students can support local businesses and school-related events with what they learn in class.
My hope is that I can find someone with the patience to help in any way possible. I am painfully addicted to perfection and I know this process is going to lead to an obsession, but with me it’s all about learning the craft and adopting an appreciation that I can pass on to others.
I have found it amazingly difficult to gather information on professional sign making skills and I think I’ve truly found a diamond in the rough thanks to the Shortreeds and Letterville.com. I appreciate any help that any of you can give on the first baby steps of this journey…I respect all of you for your ability, insight and dedication to your craft. Thank you in advance…
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff Margeson High School Art Teacher 49 Kincaid St. Bolivar, NY 14715 jmargeson@brcs.wnyric.org Posts: 29 | From: Bolivar, NY | Registered: May 2008
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I few things I'd strongly suggest to help start you off on the right foot would to first find at least two sign supply businesses that can help you with your substrate needs. They'll be more than happy to explain all of the options you find. I have two in my area that will deliver to my shop twice a week. That way I don't need to stock much inventory and have my cash flow tied up.
Second, get a subscription to SignCraft Magazine. You can find a link to it Letterville Bookstore. While you're there, I also strongly recommend two books - Layout: Mastering the Art of Eye Appeal" and "Commercial Sign Techniques".
posted
Hey, Jeff, I started with painted plywood in 1985. This site will tell you all you need as to where to buy better substrates, to get the Mike Stevens Mastering Layout book, etc etc. But you should get to a live meet ASAP and there is one in Mass at the end of this month. If that doesn't light a fire under you, nothing will. And you'll get real "hands-on" help. http://www.letterville.com/meets/mm8/info.htm Welcome aboard! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I would love to help you Mr. Margeson...I'm headed your way next week, why don't I stop in..what day does the cafeteria have Meat Loaf? I hear it's good there in Bolivar!
Great to see someone has the desire and passion...I'll do what I can for you!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
I knew it!! If there was an entire list of entrees I'd have guessed that Mike preferred cafeteria meat loaf to hospital meatloaf by a slight margin with filet mignon, cordon bleu, prime rib and prime sirloin coming in a distant third ,fourth, fifth and sixth!
Welcome to the Letterheads, Jeffrey! You'll be very well placed in the hands of Mike Meyer for sure. This joint is a wealth of experience and knowledge.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Thanks for the prompt response, and a direction to start digging...I'm sure I'll have lots of questions!
Mike, sorry no meatloaf...I checked the menu and all it says for next week is "Cook's Choice," that being said, it looks as if Mystery Meat is the entree'!
Thanks again, I'm sure you'll be hearing from me in the near future!
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff Margeson High School Art Teacher 49 Kincaid St. Bolivar, NY 14715 jmargeson@brcs.wnyric.org Posts: 29 | From: Bolivar, NY | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I'm looking at two large signs, probably 4' X 8'...and wondering what would be the best substrate to start from....
The signs are going to be displayed outdoors for only a week or two to advertise an Irish Festival...they would like to use the signs on a yearly basis so they would only be exposed, (at ground level) for 2 weeks out of the year.
Any suggestions for materials (board, paint, prepping, finishing, etc.) would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks...
Rookie
-------------------- Jeff Margeson High School Art Teacher 49 Kincaid St. Bolivar, NY 14715 jmargeson@brcs.wnyric.org Posts: 29 | From: Bolivar, NY | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Jeff, if it were me..... (everyone has there own way)
I'd get two sheets of 1/2" mdo. Sand the surfaces lightly with some 220 grit paper. be sure to check the edges of the board for voids and fill them with a paintable chalking. Prime with a good quality primer using a roller (I generally use a cheap foam roller cover). I would then apply two coats of OneShot lettering enamel (just my personal preference). Industrial enamel will work just as well and is more readily available, but tends takes longer to dry.)
At this point, you're ready to letter - paint or vinyl.
My reason for using lettering enamels is because I have found it easier to remove vinyl lettering without damaging the surface. I've tried using gloss latex, but I've always had a problem with the paint peeling if I have to change a date on the sign.
If there is one thing I must stress, its that you really need to give each coat the proper amount of time to dry. Don't try to rush it. If you do, you risk more costly problems later on.
posted
We haven't used MDO in years here. I'm a firm Dibond fan. Leave it white, Scotchbrite it for paint, no priming re,quired whutevah...... No delamination, no warping, waterproof, cuts easily with a saw, cut rounded corners or shapes, lightweight and rigid.
P
[ May 19, 2008, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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You should of said Western New York! I just looked Bolivar up on the map. We go to Letchworth State Park at least once a year. Have also been to Allegany State Park just West of you.
As for the festival signs. I just quoted four 4x8's to a local Business Improvement Area having their 1st ever festival in 3 weeks. They wanted banners to put between a make shift sign post system because they were using a local source of mobile signs (that uses digitial imaged banners over a frame system) as a price comparison. The group has a very limited budget. The signs would consume all of it!
I have tried to convince them that 6mm coroplast with vinyl copy would have lots of advantages. They could readily change the date and other copy year after year and have an asset for future festivals. The coro would not billow or be wrinkled when pulled taunt like banners would. 4'x8' coro is not as easy to transport or store as banners would be but I suspect installing it on the posts or a fence would be simpler.
The knowledge that the signs will only be up for two weeks each year allows you to go with inexpensive substrates. They will take more abuse during the 50 weeks in storage than they will from the elements in two weeks. Just make sure its waterproof.
A lot depends on their budget for this. The more you put into substrate the less you can put into the image (unless you are doing it for free!).
Good luck with this. Sounds like a good first project to get involved in to help the community.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I agree with Glenn......MDO is still a good medium to use...do not be afraid of it Jeff. DIBOND is great too! I can help ya knock out those drunken Irish signs...just put "beer" in white on big green shamrock and you'll have finians crawlin' all over the place.
"cook's choice" oh no...I remember when it said that in the Army mess hall.....VEAL for 7 days!
Hey, why not!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
Jeff I think I would look into enamel-receptive banners due to the fact that they can be rolled and stored. If hung and cared for properly, and dated ambiguously ("Third Weekend in June") these things would last for ages. USBannerCorp makes some nice ones. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
We use both materials, but rarely use MDO. One reason being that it takes too much prep time. Filling the voids in the edges, sanding, priming and 2 finish coats, etc. is a couple days worth of drying time. The Dibond is all ready to go, just letter it. The other advantage it the weight. Dibond is much lighter and easier to handle. We also like a new material called Alupanel which is very "cost effective" and lighter still. Get with a distributor in your area and ask for samples of these materials. ALSO, "get thee to a meet"! Looks like the closest one too you is the up coming Mass Mayhem. They will have LOTS of advice, step by step, materials, you name it! You just need to ask! And welcome to Letterville! I am and ex-art teacher too. I quit to do signs with my husband and now sons. www.diazsignart.com I did k-12. What ages do you enjoy the most?
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Welcome aboard. You're headed in the right direction by coming here. If you get some hands on with Mike Meyer and at the Mass Mayhem meet, you'll be even further down the road.
When using MDO, it's also a good idea to ease the sharp edges by hitting them with sandpaper. It helps keep the paint from pulling back from the edge.
Personally, for ease of use and not having to go through the trouble of priming and painting (I think that's what I meant by "ease of use"), I generally prefer Dibond as Pierre recommended, however, it does need some framing to support it. MDO is thicker and can do with much less support. Depending on how the sign will be mounted, either one becomes an option for me. If the sign will lead a tough life, MDO is more tolerant of rough handling and abuse.
In case you aren't very familiar with these materials, MDO is Medium Density Overlay plywood, which is also used for concrete forms. It has a resin soaked Kraft paper overlay, giving it a smooth surface which accepts paint very well.
Dibond is a brand of Aluminum Composite Material (ACM is another acronym used to describe that type of substrate). It's a sandwich material of Aluminum/Polyethylene/Aluminum which is prefinished in various colors. Typically, it's about 1/8" thickness and runs ninety to a hundred dollars for a 4' x 8' sheet. It's rigid and ready for the application of graphics. It's a wonderful product but does get dented fairly easily.
As has been suggested, contact the local sign supplier or one of the folks on the board here and describe exactly what you wish the sign to do and how you plan to decorate the face, and you will get input on the above or some other substrates that might be even better suited to your needs.
I wish you the best.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Glenn, if you can make me a kid again I'll gladly switch to MDO. But leave my memory intact please. Ok. Ready. Do I need to clench??
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Hey Jeff and welcome to Letterville! Don't sweat the crappy work part; we all did crappy work when we first started, LOL. It can be a difficult business to learn but certainly not as bad as it used to be, thanks to the Letterheads movement. Dump the plywood and grab some alucobond (aka Dibond, Renobond, ACM, "Aluminum Composite Material", etc.) and life will be a lot easier and your back will thank you most of all. If you have specific questions don't hesitate to ask.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
...and if you make the last half dozen posters or so stay after class, don't put them in the same room!
...unless it's to coat out your MDO. In that case, you need to bring Raymond Chapman up from Texas, however, he's likely to take a few naps during the process. I think he started that napping business in high school so he'd feel right at home.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
David , nuttin wrong with a good nap every now and then...I can't wait til the snow flies again so I can stoke the wood stove and kick back for a snoooooze and wake up with my cat on top o me!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Pierre St.Marie: Glenn, if you can make me a kid again I'll gladly switch to MDO. But leave my memory intact please. Ok. Ready. Do I need to clench??
P
Well, I don't know if I can make you a kid again. I'm not a miracle worker.
But, I do know how to make you feel like a kid. All you need to do is stand next to someone older and less attractive than you and have a whoopie cushion handy. It works every time.
Nevman...thanks for the info...you look like you're a big Jimmy Buffet fan!
Mike...I appreciate it, even if your name reminds me of Halloween.
Pierre...let's just say you can't go wrong taking advice from a guy named Pierre!
Glenn...great insight, I'm checking prices as I type.
Ricky...I know I'll be coming back for advice.
Jane...thank you so much!
David...you win the award for most insightful, I appreciate your explanation because I thought I was reading Latin with all of the abbreviations!
and Chuck...what a beautiful place both Letchworth and Alegany State Parks are...I love both of them and actually take field trips to each park every year.
You guys are the greatest...you're all on my Christmas card list and I plan to write a song about you all!
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff Margeson High School Art Teacher 49 Kincaid St. Bolivar, NY 14715 jmargeson@brcs.wnyric.org Posts: 29 | From: Bolivar, NY | Registered: May 2008
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-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
One last post: When I started out they said I would never make it because I was a perfectionist. That was more than 50 years ago. Bill
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
If there was an entire list of entrees I'd have guessed that Mike preferred cafeteria meat loaf to hospital meatloaf by a slight margin with filet mignon, cordon bleu, prime rib and prime sirloin coming in a distant third ,fourth, fifth and sixth! 
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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