posted
I've got a very significant job in the schedule, and I need some paint selection advice. The job is a very large dimensional sign, 3' x 39' - yes, feet, and it will be facing almost due south, with direct sun all day - AND the background color is to be maroon, with other areas of mustard yellow, deep green and black. It's the maroon that I worry about. I am considering several options for paint, including Ronan Aquacote, Sherwin-Williams Acrylic "Super Paint", Fine Paints of Europe, and Porter/Rhino paint. There is also the outside possiblity of having the background sprayed with automotive basecoat/clearcoat, cetainly the most expensive solution. The background panels will be made of AZEK pvc, so I also need to do a bit of research on adhesion and prep, but for now, I'm looking for advice based on experience - not opinion. If anyone has experience with different paints, specifically the maroon/burgundy colors, over the long term - say five years or longer - I'd like to know which held up the best in color retention and chalking resistance. There's lots of paint choices out there - I want to make one I can live with.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think (with proper research) that the automotive paint will be your best bet in the long run. Would it be a better choice to use DiBond rather than the PVC? Can you choose a substrate which is already maroon to start with? Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I've been throwing paint onto signs for over 40 years and I would use the dibond, prepainted if at all possible, may cost more money but you can walk away knowing the work will last !
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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Most bulletin boards of the past had steel panels for the reason of stable surfaces. The pre-coating involved using a stretchable type of primer (using a light version of the prescribed background color) for longevity. The dark backgrounds were usually cut in after the primary bulk of copy was applied. Less surface concern of dark color shift in extreme heat. As far as UV concerns it might be wise to contact Kent Smith, who can probably advise best.
My 2 bits..
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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We just bought our first AZEK sheet today, our local lumber company started carrying it. $92.
We have Matthews maroon paint on signs over 10 years old that look great. At that time we were using matthews epoxy primer over butternut for house signs. And everything still looks new. I can tell you that (no suprise here) Decca and oneshot both fade to pink in less than 5 years.
I know the Matthews paint sticks to almost anything. 10 years ago I painted some machinable teflon with maroon just to empty the gun. I thought the paint would just peel off later. No way I could get it off without grinding.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I know you will do a bang-up good job. I don't believe you specified what substrate you are using for the body of the project. That will call out the paint type.
One consideration is expansion and contraction. While Matthews is agreat paint, it's catalyzed. As you know that's asking for cracks when painting over wood. They have an additive. I've never tried it.
Either PVC or Dibond are good choices. I've used latex on both with success. They will be a bit more tender for a week or so, but are hard to beat over the long run.
So what's the substrate?
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Joe, am I reading that right? Sintra panels painted a UV absorbing color in a south facing fixed postition?
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Interesting juxtaposed issues in one request. Of all the substrates available, PVC has the highest expansion/contraction coefficient. That means that the finish must be flexible and dimensionally stable as well as UV resistant. Using a two component that is specifically formulated for sign substrates like Matthews or GripGuard would be preferrable to automotive which tends to cure out harder. Two components will have the longest color retention, hands down. Having said that, a high quality acrylic latex will last 5 to 10 years under many conditions other than exposure to extreme heat, salt or alkyline water, solvents and heavy abraision (including high winds, high pressure sprinklers or consistant driving rains). I am not familiar with AZEK but most polyvinyl chlorides are alike. SW also makes a brushable two-component in their custom industrial finishes that has some merit but is not available in all areas.
At any rate, PVC must be cleaned with a compatable solvent, followed by soap and water wash with complete rinse. The surface should be lightly sanded to promote adhesion and primed with an acrylic (ie ti-cote) or two component primer, depending upon the final finish chosen. Intercoat adhesion is critical when extreme expansion can be expected, especially from a dark color as well as over this type of material.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Since it a dimensional sign, no matter what material, and considering the size, which reflects the material investment.
Automotive paint for the background!!!
Personally, I'd use catylized acrylic enamel, but basecoat/clearcoat would work even better.
Not an opinion, just from experience.
Yep, I was a vinyl jockey, but even we had/have to have a decent, non-fading background!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
There's been lots of posts about painting PVC. Many are Koncuctions like vinyl inks, or flexable automotive paints. All would work, however, if scuffed up like Bill says, a good latex will hold fast.
I have a Vet. Clinic with individual PVC letters standing for ten years plus. The colors are purple. I'm one of those fellows who believe Acrylic Latex paints aren't as subject to UV detioration as enamels. I've had some trouble with mixed latex paints however. Especially the reds and yellows. For these I use non-mixed, strait out of the can, implement colors.
Take a piece of your favorite PVC, paint it up and throw it on the roof of your shop. Collect in a year or so for a first hand test.
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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I would think going the route with single stage automotive finishes might be preferred. Less expensive than the base/clear systems but well within the range of durability you need, both Nason (Dupont) and the Omni AE line of paint(PPG) are good brands to look for.
The real key will be getting the right primer for PVC material and insuring adhesion. Products and info are available from most auto refinishing suppliers. You may need to special order them as they don't usually carry them in larger quantities as you will need for a project of that scale.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hey, Joe...... We reuglarly use pvc for free standing copy and logos, mostly 1/2" to 1" thick, but our experience with 6mm as a large substrate painted with dark colors is summer U/V high temp warping. To what do you laminate the pvc sheets, and how do you laminate them in the context of a 39' long panel?
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Your absolutely correct. Raymond has complaints on even 1/2" warping.
I thought you were concerned about the paint by the term UV. Dibond would be a better choice. If a thicker piece is prefered Extira might work.
As always, I appreciate your experience and good judgment.
J
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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iam with GRUNDY!!! my experiances with ANY MAROON PAINT has never been good unless it was AUTOMOTIVE PAINT. i prefer MARTIN SENOUR since i worked at NAPA for so long i know the paint system better then any other one. ACRYLIC ENAMEL, single stage, add the hardner, and you got 5-7 years of trouble free, almost negligable fade....i would contrate a BODY SHOPto spray the panels.....in a spray booth so all look same shade.
[ May 18, 2008, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The longest lasting maroons I have had, were underpainted with a red oxide/indian red/venetian red/burnt sienna/rust/etc colour first. That way if they were to fade, they faded to a stable colour beneath, and lets face it- rust doesn't oxidise or fade worst than it already is!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Definately tint the undercoat whatever paint you use! As Ian says; Dump a heap of red oxide into it.
Sorry but paint in USA sucks! I've tried it. Price and politics has sucked the guts out of it. No lead. Less pigment. Like having sex on the beach .... F**king close to water!
Take this oportunity to show you what REAL paint can do. Did this mural almost 10 years ago and it faces full (Aussie) sun for most of the day.
posted
basecoat/clearcoat or single stage is going to give you the longest life for the background. I think also spraying a nice semigloss latex is also good longevity.
10 years or more with automotive paints should be adequate time for the client
but if you spray with latex just get some $30 per gallon paint instead of this $100 per gallon paint, the warrantys are no different so why waste the money AND EVEN IF you get the more expensive and it fails, they are going to blame it on prep.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I'll have to side with Bugs Bunny. He holds Maroons in contempt, particularly Maroons from Rio De Janerio.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I've been having quite a bit of success with Matthews' maroons. I've several panels out there that are nearly 10 years old and are holding up surprisingly well.
posted
My client has asked for Azek, because the rest of the trim on the building is Azek... however, the trim is a very pale off-white, and I am concerned with expansion/contraction of panels painted a darker color.
A bit of explanation of this job is in order. The background panels are just that - background. In the center of the sign the background is cut out, revealing an underlying panel (which will be black Dibond, smalted) that will have carved HDU raised letters adhered to it. On each end of the 39' background panel is a 30" x 84" carved HDU sign panel, which will be mounted atop the background panel(s) and lagged through it to the building. Because there is to be a significant reveal around the dibond panels, I'm using material 1" thick. Again, though my client has requested Azek, I may be inclined to use Extera, to avoid a problem with expansion/contraction.
I know Joe Crumley has commented on extensive use of Extira, and speaks well of it. Any other comments? Again, thanks for the commentary on paint selection; I'm still researching a number of options.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well, it looks like you're going to have to choose from a lot of different options, Cam. All offer good dependability. Some are more costly, and more hazardous (automotives). Don't know if that's a factor or not.
The new generation of acrylics are pretty damn tough, as much as I hate to say it. Never been much of a latex fan. The Sherwin-Williams Super Paints or the one I've just found out about, ENAMELATEX, are very good. Some of the murals on the walls over at Vicksburg were done with it, no primer, about 5 years ago, and still look great. I'm getting ready to start using it for background work...about $55 per gallon. It amazes me at how well some of this stuff sticks to plastic, metal, even vinyl, with basically no preparation.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Cam, we've used a number of paints in the past 45 years, but the ones with which I've been most impressed for longevity and color retention are the automotive urethanes for substrates. Second for us are the exterior 25 year acrylics from (unbelievably) Walmart.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Cam, if you go the automotive urethane route, don't go with the cheaper brands. Like all paint there is a reason it's cheaper. I've used enough of it on race cars and personal vehicles to know it goes away much quicker than the good stuff.
Also, if there is any question about expansion problems, add some flex agent.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
Each material has it's own qualities and weakness. The better qualities of Extira is it nature to be shaped and carved along with it's superior water resistance.
It's short commings are it's relatively soft, floppy at legnth like HDU, and doesn't have a grain pattern for screws to grab.
We cut lots of letters from Extira. They maintain a sharp edge and last and last.
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Well, having talked to a few other painting people, I'm pretty sure Azek is out... my local BenMoore dealer said one of the complaints he hears from housepainters is that darker colors make Azek expand/contract too much, causing paint to "pop right off" (his words). I'm going to compare price and availability between HDU and Extira, then worry about paint.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ok, Joe........ I've pretended that I know what your talking about long enough. What the hell is Extira???
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Cam, if you go with the Extira, read the manufacturer's information sheets. Many people here have loged complaints about paint failures and the manufacturer specifically suggests the use of waterbased acrylic coatings. I have had good results with these.
I would suggest getting in touch with Gary Anderson as he is the authority on this subject, and has his own line of paints.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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