posted
Ok, I'm not sure if this is another issue of "you can't please every customer every time" or if I share in some of the blame. It's hard to be objective when you are directly involved so I'll ask the pros.
I get a call from this guy who wants the wrap below (I just finished it today) So he originally called me 5-6 months ago when I was just getting my feet wet wrapping boxtrucks and vehicles here and there.
I quoted him $1785 to do the job originally. Time went on and I stopped in one day on a whim and brought the price down to $1500 because I thought it would be a really cool portfolio picture.
So he finally calls me ready and We go back and forth for weeks getting the design right. (damn perfectionists) That's ok...so we get it right and a day or two later he calls me and says he wants to switch to the side of a a work van instead of the suburban so I'm like cool, I can use intermediate vinyl laminated and just wet app. it to smooth out the bubbles. No sweat right? So I print the material (or have a wholesale printer print them for me) Last minute he calls me after I printed the vinyl and says he wants to switch back to the suburban. So, I'm freaking because I was going to use control tac on the suburban but since he switched to the van I figured I'd save a few dollars on print and get the other stuff. Now, I was really busy when he called me and I'm not an install pro. I hire someone to do install. I called my install guy and and asked him if he felt comfortable and he said he felt like it wouldn't be any huge issues that we'd just have to babysit it more than control tac. So I just leave it like that with my customer because I don't like to nit pick every technical detail with customers and we proceed with install.
Well, all said and done, they guy isn't happy with the job. he says it looks un professional and he has a problem with the bubbles (not very many) I basically told him that when he switched back to the suburban last minute it caused us install problems and his argument was that I should have told him there would be problems so he could make a decision. I told him It's difficult to foresee what kind of installation problems might arise until the install is in progress and that I didn't anticipate any problems...also that the only way to remedy the problem completely would've been for him to dish out another $1000 or so for me to prepare the right graphics for the suburban. I didn't think he'd be happy with that so i figured I'd just keep it moving...
posted
LOL>>>> I said that exact thing.....and he laughed. I got paid, so I'm not all that upset about it, I just don't like being called a hack because we worked our hearts out getting that wrap right for the dude to just come out and tear it apart. I said exactly what you said....THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SMELL IT, THEY'RE GOING TO READ IT AT 45 MPH....
posted
On that black vehicle, it'll get hot enough in the sun the bubbles will bake out... tell him to give it a couple weeks and it'll look fine...
I do have a question about the graphics on the drivers side window. They won't let us do that here, even if it's perf... is he gonna have a problem there?
By the way, I think it looks REALLY good and he should be happy with it. Like Rapid said, most people will be seeing it from a few feet away and won't see small defects...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, I don't know of any restriction. Most likely there is but he's mainly going to be parking it in front of his business because they made him take down all types of signage he had by the road. I don't think he'll be driving it much. Vehicle graphics are exploding here because the sign ordinances are so restrictive, people are using them to park by the road instead of a banner or something The sign ordinance people don't have restrictions for vehicles.
posted
If their are any restrictions, Dawud, you'll find that the state DOT or DMV will be the ones with them. Sign ordinances are usually handled on a town by town basis. Vehicle restrictions are a state handled issue.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I like the effect on the black shows up good. Im not a big fan of the size. thats just too damn big and there is no sense in it. I know its not your fault.
but at least it doesnt have fire or a montage of twisted shiny metal in the background or any other tacky fills you can get from fellers wrap class
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Hard to tell about any bubbles from that distance, but bubbles can be taken care of. What does bother the hell out of me is the graphics covering that much of the driver's window. Seems just plain dangerous. If he's attempting a lane change and doesn't see that semi pulling up on him, any contract might be a moot point anyway.
P
BTW....... Jon, it might be a Montana thing, but in 35 years of working with films I have yet to see trapped air (bubbles) baked out by the sun. They can most certainly be removed.
P
[ May 16, 2008, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Having been in your shoes before, this how I would have handled it.
First off did you get a signed contract? If not then that should be a priority. That way you could have charged him a change order.
Also I think you learned a great lesson here. In a perfect world you should have stuck to your original price, printed it on control tac and we wouldn't be talking about this job unless it was in the portfolio section.
It is a good idea to document all transactions and any changes have to be signed off on. And yes your customer is right, you should have let him know so he could have made the appropriate decision.
I can only speak for myself and tell you, been there done that, and I think I have a box of t-shirts on this one.
[ May 16, 2008, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
For future reference, you may want to change your disclaimers at the bottom of your quote form and/or proof sheet to reflect the wisdom you have recently acquired.
If you quoted premium vinyl and installed intermediate, did you lie? How much money did you actually save by using intermediate? Was the cost difference worth the PIA?
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I like the overall look of the job, Dawud. I do, however, agree with the others that the copy over the driver's window may one day make him his own best customer.
My main question would be, if you have to pay someone to make the graphic and pay someone else to install it, why bother? Seems like there's at least two loose ends that you have little control over, that could get you into trouble.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I don't see any problem with subbing out the print and install. $1,500.00 job. Vinyl printed at $3.50 a sq ft = $224.00. Subbed install: probably took the guy 2.5 hours @ a generous $75.00 an hour = $150.00. That leaves you with $1,126.00 for sales / design time.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Pierre St.Marie: BTW....... Jon, it might be a Montana thing, but in 35 years of working with films I have yet to see trapped air (bubbles) baked out by the sun. They can most certainly be removed.
I don't know about films either. I've not had much experience with making movies, and most any videos I do are with a digital video camera anyway...
Now I can say from the experience of having done probably 10,000 "Git 'R' Dun" vinyl windshield decals, (not something I'm proud of) that some of those small areas of tiny bubbles will disappear after a week of reaching a surface temperature of approximately 195 degrees in our southern sun. Up there in Montana? I don't know if getting your sun-rays at a 45 degree angle qualifies as direct sunlight or not, so yes, it may make a difference.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Tim, I don't think you read my whole sentence about subbing out this type of work. Subbing is Ok in a lot of instances, but... What if the printer uses an inferior grade of vinyl that you're not aware of; or what if the installer screws up the job?
Where are your profits then? They're out of your control and they're gone, along with the customer. And while you and your subbers are argueing over whose fault it is, the customer is telling all his friends what a lousy job you did.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
So the air in Alabama passes right through Vinyl FILM and the adhesive system?? I gotta move there!
P
[ May 16, 2008, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Just curious as to why you didn't suggest doing this as a print / cut job instead of a full-blown wrap. I would have probably cut the vinyl, used a spraygun to do the color fade, weeded and applied the graphics or done the whole thing in paint mask and shot it.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Dale, if your choosey about your subs, problems like that are rare. Just as rare as your own printer going haywire, or your own employee flubbing the job.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Geez, Jake! Now I know what a brain-fart actually is! Thanks for wakin' me up to smell the...... well......... whatever that was. Sheesh!
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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You also kinda got screwed by a customer's change of mind. Hopefully, you have learned a lesson...Many customers ARE evil!!!!
Would have done it like Ricky suggested also. Doing everything in-house for the original price would have been OK. Also an easy install as individual elements rather than a wrap.
Plus I would have reduced the entire size by 5% or whatever was needed so that none of the lettering had to be trimmed off. My impression is that of the layout being done on a picture of the passenger's side, without "mirroring" the picture to see how things would fit on the driver's side.
By the way..why is the telephone number much smaller on one side?
Just my dos centavos
[ May 16, 2008, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
well, It seems like he's found a real snag that he can pin me down with. During the dozens of revisions at one point he switched the swoosh on the bottom to taper at the end instead of the front.(just on the drivers side) I mistakenly printed them both with the swoosh the same and he's going to hold me to it. Arrrgh. He got me. I definately learned a lot with this one. He brought up the window issue as well and It seems like he finally pinned me down with the swoosh. I can't blame that on him switching. That was my mistake. I hate that we worked so hard on it and now we have to reprint, remove it and re install it because of the damn swoosh. Oh well, lesson learned.
here's the final proof I sent him with the swoosh switched.
Please don't take this as a bashing...BUT if you use that layout, sized the way it is, you are setting yourself up for a "three-peat"!!!
If I were the customer, and saw what you propose for the passenger side, I would be wondering what kind of magic is going to make that layout fit and look right?
PLEASE consider downsizing things so they will actually fit.
Also..consider doing what Ricky suggested...cut/spray or print/cut the word Maaco..then cut the other stuff and then install as separate componants. There is no need for that job to be done as a partial wrap.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Dave, the passenger side is done and he's happy with it. it's the driver's side he's unhappy with because the M is up too high and the swoosh is wrong.
I'm going to have to fix it because that's my fault.
I guess he sniffed it long enough to find something he could pin on me, eh Ray?
posted
It looks good to me. I just want to comment on the "bubbles". It's always been in my experience that it's the painters or paint companies that equate the vinyl bubbles with the paint bubbles; they are two completely different entities. You know if a paint job has orange peel it's one thing, but bubbles mean there is a possibility of paint going to start peeling. Is there a technical explanation you could give him about the material not deteriorating or peeling due t a few bubbles? I've figured out through the years that the painters or painting companies fear something may happen but fail to realize the concepts and make up of paint vs. vinyl have different relationships with bubbles. See with paint it's an wet layer underneath and the vinyl it's no sweat, just a little hot air! It may be that they are also just worried that others that see the bubbles may think that their paint jobs are also inferior. I've also seen that the sun usually takes care of them; as you know you just don't want to squeegie them if there is heat involved due to creasing, but you know that too. I am curious what the reaction of the customer will be after you tell them they should wait a few weeks to see what the sun will do to take them out, and the difference actually is.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Last year, I had a $6000.00 "meal" when I made and installed forty signs with the wrong color background--I didn't read my own work order. In my defense, I had the following good reasons for the error:
1. 2. 3.
OK, it was all my fault and I had to redo and reinstall the entire order. If it doesn't pay, it at least saves to slow down and review everything before barging forward full speed ahead.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dawud, dropping the design over a photo like that shows you several problems that are likely to come back and haunt you later. What's messing this one up is the logo itself. The oversized "M" throws everything for a loop when trying to transition it form one side to the other.
On the driver's side, the italisized lettering doesn't go anywhere near the front fender, yet on the passenger's side, the last letter does and will become distorted. The same situation creates the need for making the phone numbers of varying sizes.
IMHO, the side to side fade of the subtext lettering doesn't fit with the logo's top to bottom fades. That "M" raises it's ugly head again by leaving a big dead spot underneath it, but changing the angle a bit can fix it.
For what it's worth... I would have done the fades on white vinyl and cut the rest instead of going with the digital prints on this job. You can easily get the same results without all the grief and subbing out.
I guess I'm with Dale on that point...less hands in the pot, less that can go wrong.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I attended one of the seminars at the NBM show in Charlotte on digital wraps. The guy giving the seminar was Dave King. He gave several guide sheets which I think would have helped you avoid your situation. If you'd like, I'll be happy to scan them into a PDF file and send them to you. You may find them useful.
One of the guides is a "Vehicle Prep Guide: Give this to your clients BEFORE YOU TOUCH THEIR VEHICLE!"
Another is "Reasonable & Unreasonable Expectations from your Vehicle Graphics".
Its pretty comprehensive and even includes a "Vinyl Installation & Removal Retail Price" list.
*Edited to add: If you ever get the chance to attend one of King's seminars, do it. Its well worth the time.
[ May 18, 2008, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Yeah, on doing the job in Vinyl and doing the fades, the customer was kind of adamant about doing a "wrap" (between quotes) He wanted a digital print. That was discussed before hand. He wanted them laminated and the whole deal like he's seen on other wraps so....
It's ok. this is one of my first wraps and my installer basically told me that I've now been through vehicle wrap bootcamp. I figure the learning experience is valuable enough.
Glenn, I would love those guide sheets. I'm all for anything helpful and I'll print off a bunch of them and give them to any potential wrap customer in the future. It seems like that's the issue here. Some people just don't know what to expect and if we don't educate them we end up with problems.
Also, I came up with an excellent Idea. I just wrapped my own vehicle. Put control tac on one side and intermediate vinyl on the other. With the control tac we were able to actually wrap around some areas that we were'nt able to wrap around with the intermetiade stuff. We had to split areas with the cheap stuff that we could just form around with the control tac. Also, there were slight bubbles on the intermediate side and none on the control tac side so now I have a live example to show my customers. and give them the option for a lesser price on certain jobs.
I put it into a zipped PDF file after I cleaned the scans up a bit. Its about a 10 meg file because I scanned it in at a rather high resolution.
Its not all of the information sheets he provided. Only the ones that would specifically address your issues. Be sure to check out King's website. The guy gave an absolutely brilliant seminar and hands-on class at the NBM Show.
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