Hope all is going well for everyone out there in Sign Land.
We are having a serious issue with our clear coat. I really like the clear coat - it seems like it protects the sign but now I'm not so sure.
We created a beautiful hand-carved sign with a custom hand-painted design for The Sayre Mansion in Bethlehem, Pa. It's right on a hill at a very busy intersection. It's a job that has sold other signs and this customer has recommended us. So, as you all can understand, we don't want to loose them to a faulty product. We've already had so many issues with Avery.
We installed the sign in Nov. of 2004. Yesterday I was up there and saw that the one sides, facing the morning sun, is totally hazed. After inspection this a.m., Dave came back and said the clear coat is cracking and pealing. UGH!!!
I just called my supplier and we were using Frog Juice clear coat up to 11/05 on top of One Shot Lettering Enamel, not realizing OS made a clear. We made the switch to One Shot Clear Coat then (11/5 - a year after that install). I'm going to go look at my other signs and compare.
We had a sign from 12 years ago that we actually used the Lettering Enamel w/o clear and it's still looks great. We're wondering if the One Shot has changed their formula, or is it the Frog Juice (obviously 2 different products). We did hear thru the grapevine that they did but nothing for certain. Dave swears the prices for the products go up and the quality has gone down. Maybe we're just using the wrong products now ???
Do any of you Pros have suggestions? Is clear even necessary? Different paints? etc....
THANK YOU so much for any help!!!
If you want to see the sign it's on our website. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post that on here.
Thanks Again and Best Wishes.
Take Care. Diane
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
There has been a lot of discussion on here lately about the "new" One Shot and how it isn't holding up. It sounds like in your case the clear is breaking down. Myself, I had too many problems with Frog Juice when I first tried it. There are too many other options out there in the way of two part clears to take a chance with Forg Juice. Some people swear by it, others swear at it.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Sorry to hear about your problems, Diane. Like George said, there have been a lot of changes made in recent years to our paints in general, and most of them not for the better.
Clearcoats have been an issue for a long time, especially before the advent of UV protection.
Again, like George said, Frog Juice and 1 Shot clears have both been slammed from time to time for their lack of durability. Many have gone to automotive clears, two part urethanes. They obviously hold up well. In the past, even these have had issues with cracking, as they won't expand and contract as much as the wood. I don't know about the new ones; they may be better.
You'd maybe check into the new acrylic clearcoats also. They seem to be coming on strong, both in performance and durability.
Good luck. As far as the sign you have now that is cracking....well...
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Ahhh, we'd love to switch to the auto clear but it's so expensive. We'll have to look into it. We have a good friend next door with an auto body shop and a great friend who paints. Maybe with some research we could do it.
That would be SO AWESOME to put out long lasting signs. And/Or just know that after the install there's no worries! Although, Klaus (auto body guy) has horror stories about some of his auto painting jobs. Guess that's the nature of the beast in these industries.
Challenges challenges! Ai Yai Yai. Well, at least, we're all in the same boat.
p.s. didn't realize my website was listed, and/or they had the "home page" DUH!! I'll learn.
THANKS!! We really appreciate it.
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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This is all part of the experimenting which I've spoken about for years. Staying on top of your craft instead of being a follower is something you've evidently missed and so you have the opportunity to use a quote which is " Without obstacles, life is boring " how true!
There are many other materials which can be used and the answers are in one's reach if they were to experiment, learn and live for themselves just as persons like I have lived. The internet is a good tool yet commonsense is best.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
We never cleared over One Shot. Used only Arlon Calon II HP vinyl for lettering exterior signs. In Michigan weather (15 below to 100 degrees)we expected at least 10 years, and have signs up now 15 years that still look good.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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I wouldn't clear over one shot or vinyl. We use tons of Frog Juice but only on our edge printed vinyl. If you have to clear I've had good luck with marine two part clears. I've used them on faux finish signs, get 5 or 6 years before thye start to show wear. One simple soultion is to wash and wax the sign twice a year, but the customers never do. Maybe you could offer a "maintenance" contract with the nicer projects.
posted
Funny you say that... My brother lives in NJ and his friend has a store in Cape May. They are offering him "sign contracts" now. They're saying it's due to the salt air, which is bruital on signs.
Interesting.... one more thing to consider on my long list....
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well...I've debated whether to plod in on this thread or not because I'll probably just get booed down and dismissed as an old fogey....but
I never use clear over anything. It is my opinion (and just that...opinion) that the clear is the weakest part of the equation. Premium paints will last much longer than the clear, so the clear actually speeds up the aging process.
I just can't see putting clear over vinyl. I know that the digital prints will last longer with some type of protective coating, because the inks are not very UV resistent, but some type of lamination seems to be the answer. As you can tell, we don't do many digital prints.
Two part automotive clears are another ball game and usually last a long time, but the "out of the can" stuff just doesn't seem to add much to our signs.
OK...that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Time for a nap.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I've had limited success with clear coats. Even with automotive clears.
Paint today is what it is and its up to us to give the client realistic expectations.
As for the cost of automotive paint, it is only expensive if the customer says it is, not us. What I'm saying is that I give the customer different pricing options. The type of paint I use is part of that.
I really don't care what it cost since the client is the one to make the decision. If he wants the cheapest option then that is what he'll get along with a realistic expectation of how well it will hold up.
If the client wants something that is going to last for years, then that is what he'll get. He knows up front the initial cost will be higher, but he also knows that in the long run it will actually be far less expensive.
posted
Have you ever heard of anyone putting a clear coat over house paint to protect it? Probably not. We prime and than finish with two coats of a high quality latex paint. That's it, the paint is the protection. When we started making signs all we heard about was the use of 'one shot' enamels. Well, after a short trial period, we decided we couldn't live and breath in the same space with one shot, so we searched out a water based paint and came up with Pratt and Lambert Accolade.
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if any of you were wondering why I hate one shot , this is why. I used their clearcoat when it came out. i prepped the surface as I should and under 1 year later it was flaking like fish scales.
i emailed and called and left messages....no response. then i received an email saying that i did not prep the surface and if it was proven I did they would replace the clear.
I ruined 2 signs both were 6' x 8' aluminum, and they will replace the SH** that ruined them, I DONT THINK SO. I sent my disgust back to them and that was that. and STILL they are producing crap and people are still using it, WHY? Is anyone NOT listening at spraylat, ANYONE
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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I tried the One Shot clear on a personal project. last time i will ever use One Shot for anything. I started painting 55 years ago with one shot. Had the similar but different situation with Avery a few years ago. Never use them either
[ May 03, 2008, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Jerry Starpoli ]
-------------------- Jerry Starpoli Starpoli Signs... since 1952
845-795-2438 Posts: 446 | From: Milton, NY US | Registered: Jun 2000
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I am with Ray, with this clarification. I would use an automotive clear if I was painting METAL substrate with an automotive type basecoat. Wood and other substrates move too much with the changes in weather (temp and humidity) when the harder paints don't move they crack and moisture gets in and makes a mess. I started looking into waterbased and waterbourne paints in 1992 after attending the International Letterhead meet in Canonsburg, PA and listening to Gary Anderson. Please contact him and look at his website http://www.bloomingtondesign.com/ I use a lot of TJ Ronan Aqua Cote and Porter Paints. Porter is now part of PPG and Pittsburgh Paints, which also has a urethane infused acrylic house paint I found very durable. Porter covers better than most house paints, but vinyl sticks much better to the Aqua Cote than anything else I've found, and it comes in traditional signmaking colors like process blue and such.
Let me know if you need more help on a regular basis. I started out in the auto body field, went out and got an associates degree in signs and outdoor advertising twenty three years ago, and now am teaching custom paint and graphics in an automotive school. Not to boast, I've just had the opportunity to get experience from many different angles.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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when asked if i am going to clear something i paint ( that's not going to get powerwashed-POINT BLANK, like equipment such as excavating machinery etc.....usually by some powerwasher rookie ) i simply say...............why ? just enjoy it & be careful cleaning the truck or sign.
clear + time applying + UV + uncontrollable variables + customer dissatisfaction = !&$%*#@!! ( no way jose ) enjoy the spring all. the Southern Md. "wallslopper"....still alive !
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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I'm looking into other products and mainly the product information - i.e. who owns the company, etc...
I am in total agreeance with Glenn's remarks about informing the customer and giving him/her the option. We do that with the design end, why not the product end?
Thanks again!
-------------------- Summit Signs 231 Victoria Rd Venice, Fla 34293 sales@summitsign.com http://www.summitsign.com Design Is The Difference. Posts: 271 | From: Venice, Fla | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I second what George said as we are usually on the same page. I don't think there's a darn thing wrong with clear as long as it's a 2 part automotive clear. Frog Juice and 1 Shot restoring clears will crack and peel in time as they are not long lasting clears. Acrylic latex paint will give you good results, but not as good as automotive clears over automotive base coats in my opinion. UV clears really help over reds, maroons and other suspect colors.
I would let this clear coninue to crack and peel on the above mentioned sign and it will eventually completely shed off and the paint underneath will be fine. At that time you should let it go and plan a clear coating project for another time.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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