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If you don't have a facility to acommodate sandblasting, a router or can't afford the equipment, we've developed a way for you to woodgrain Precision Board right in your shop. A show and tell should be available on the Precision Board website within a week.
Using this method you can woodgrain an entire 4'x8' sheet of Precision Board in about 25 minutes with no dust particulates floating in the shop. The finished product will accept stains or paints. Overlaminating dimensional copy/logos will be part of the show & tell. The reason we developed this is so that a sign high in the air will still have a definite woodrain. Sandblasting Precision Board with a wireframe doesn't even come close to this look, and its a simple process. Even knotholes can be a part of the effects.
[IMG]
This piece is 8'x18' and is woodgrained as shown. The architect wanted it "lightly" wood grained, so the woodgraining is medium on the reddish part and lightly woodgrained in the center.
And lastly, this is a building over-door mounted miniature of the two 10' long panels in their outside sign frames. Shows the dimensional ocpy overlay. Please don't blame the colors or logo on us.
And........... The tools. I'll explain technique later.
P
[ April 04, 2008, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I like the concept. Can't wait to see how it's done. Can you still use masking to leave letters, illustrations, and borders raised or are these applied afterwards? Bob
posted
The Tools.......... I'll explain technique later. Very quick, simple process if you know how.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
It doesn't kick up dust. I like the idea of thicker grain. Here's one we did using a concrete wire brush. This produces a fine grain. I like Pierre's better.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Like Dave we use a wire brush. We have a couple of different ones with fine and thick wire. First you take a v chisel and make a few main grains then go back with the wire brush pushing in one direction so you do not get grain crossing over. You can create a board in minutes without the mess of blasting that is realistic. Here are a few close ups from a job we just did. The sign goes on a peeled long background with a stone base.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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Yep, I do Dick's method, then I follow up with a brass wire wheel on my drill. I've even made a disk studded with small pin nails for the drill to do the first step rough-out, then follow it up with the concrete brush technique.
R
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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We've also used some garden implements like Pierre to create textured backgrounds, one that worked great was a "Pooper Scooper" it has evenly spaced metal tines. The wire brush method does create alot of particles but not near the mess of blasting. We are working on a 6x6 foot hanging sign now of Precision Board that features a brushed woodgrain background with cut out logo applied to the grained panel. We use 18lb foam when graining with wire brushes, 15 seems to break of to easily.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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Here's one we did this week. I drew a couple of squiggly lines and then used the blend tool in Corel to make basic woodgrain and had the preliminary grain routed. I then followed up with a V chisel to add depth to it and then hit it with various wire brushes. I wanted to achieve an old weathered look so I also wire brushed the outer border and wiped dark brown in the grooves.
I used the distressed version of the LHF Michelle typeface and had a 2.5D prismatic cut made on them and they had the funky look I was after. We gilded the letters with 23K Gold leaf.
This job was a learning experience and from the comments on this post I've picked up a number of things to do for next time.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes, there are some excellent carvers here that produce beautiful pieces... but you're missing the point. This isn't intended as a "look what I can do" for those who already excell in the art. Its for shops and people who do not have the ability, equipment or the facility for doing sandblasting or running power equipment that creates dust particulates in an area not designed to handle it. Its for those who want to learn a low particulate method of creating a realistic woodgrain substrate for simple dimensional copy and logo overlays. Vinyl jockeys who would like to expand their shop's capablities without having to be a good or great carver or have to move to a more suitable building. Unfortunately I screwed up the digital disc with the rest of the pictures containing the "how to", so Latigo will have to do a new series on monday. Beginners learning this process won't be carving lettering or logos. They'll be purchasing dimensional cut copy and logos from one of you who own routers or Gemini or whomever to complete very basic type projects. The short series to be posted on the Precision Board website will enable those who have never considered this process to actually do basic woodgraining and dimensional copy without illustrative talent, special equipment or a specialized shop area that they may not have. Its an easy process for beginners that will expand their income potential, and income potential is something with which I'm very familiar. For those who simply arent't artists or illustrators, capablitiy expansion is critical if they're going to compete, move ahead and not stagnate. There are some great sign artists here, but this isn't intended for them.
In the early days (1960s) I was all about realism, engraving, sings that were pointedly artsy, but as the years passed it became apparent to me that the real dollars weren't there. Those sorts of signs took so much time to create that my dollar per hour quotient was very low. Clients were extremely happy with the end result, but the "happy" had a dollar limit for them. I began to get the idea long before my son took over, but with the advent of Latigo, the studio took off like a rocket. In his first year of running the place the income quadrupled the best year I had ever had. He recognized the difference between "works of art" and the realism of making the sorts of signage that truly paid. We had discussed all of this a number of times with me defending "the art", but all he had to do was wave a current P&L statement at me and my arguements quickly faded. He intends retireing earlier than I did, and his logic is solid. We sorely need to update the website, but I can tell you that his projects have economically far surpassed anything I've ever done. Back monday with the pics.
P
[ April 05, 2008, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Boy what a great tip, looking forward to the step by step. I would never dream of going to all the trouble of a sandblasted sign. This however looks like something I would really consider if the need ever arises.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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George, I'm going to type all of the copy today while I have time and add the pictures on monday after Lat has retaken them. I won't have time at all next week. I have the extremely dubious and tedious pleasure of writing a spec manual on the next hospital project for the architect, so internet time will minimal.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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That's a neat system, Pierre. Now, this is done strictly as a background, right? You have to mount some kind of lettering or logos on top of it, correct? If I understand, your system doesn't allow you to mask of logos or lettering (like blasting) to appear raised out of the background. Correct?
Still pretty cool.
Dick, did you rout those letters into that sign before you did your grain thing? That's a beautiful job.
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Yep. That's right, Dale. Running it through a router negates the need for this process if you have the right program, but if you think about it, the flow of the grain would be compromised by having to stop at a letter and continue on after the letter. That and you'd not be able to do it convincingly in the centers of the raised copy. This is a simple background technique for overlays, but the technique itself has mechanical specifics that must be observed to make it look believable once it up in the air or even at close quarters. Get back far enough from real wood and you can't really see the grain at all. Correct application of the stain/paint is also an important factor. Copy, logos and borders are added after the fact and there are specific mounting and pattern methodologies that are peculiar to overlays on an irregular surface whitch is, after all, what you've created. It will all be in the step by step. Later..........
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Quick samples in the same vein. In the studio with Latigo working on the huge steel frames that backed these two pieces. The Architect wanted the pieces to look like they were made of large planks. Actually, they were joined sheets of 4" thick Precision board, full sized and cross-backed with 1" thick exterior plywood,weather sealed and painted with a 25 year paint. The border is 2" thick precision board cut to size and laminated to the edges making the overall thickness 7".
He then used a V bit router and rails to cut the "planks" into the surface. Then he did our graining technique on the individual "planks". He mixed an Oak stain with paint thinner making a very runny, thin solution. Using a rag, he flooded the surface with the solution allowing it to flow into the woodgrain pattern and then wiped the surface dry. The stain trapped in the woodgrain dried darker than the surface and reinforced the strength of the woodgrain.
He cut the copy with a sabre saw (this was pre-CNC router days for us) out of 2" thick Precision Board, spray painted the copy white, overlaid the film copy and bonded them to the surface with PB240 and screws from the back side.
30' up in the air, these pieces had to be apparent woodgrain, and it worked.
The bear scene was chisel and mallet carved from PB and laminated/backscrewed to the surface. The whole works went up in the air with a boom truck and welded in place.
P
[ April 05, 2008, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Dale- The letters were drawn out with a pencil and routed into the face before it was grained with a old fashioned BtHCR (Brain to Hand Controled Router) The CNC machine we have is 24" x 48" and is our engraver for ADA signage. With this limitation we do alot of cutout letters applied to a handmade background. We also cut bigger signs in pieces and splice them togather. The brush method works great to make wood pieces to frame a sign also.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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P.S. Dick, I call our BtHCR an Underhead Router, as opposed to an Overhead router, although it is acutally more of a Beside-the-head router! BtHCR is worth remembering though-thanks!
[ April 05, 2008, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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BTW, Dick......... Very nice interpretation.
Ok. We have the perfect step by step for this procedure that just fell into our laps, so it'll take a few more days. This is a very basic dimensional piece with a woodgrain background requested by the architect. 2'x6' overall.
The logo and layout is theirs, not ours, and the logo and all copy will be 1/2" thick sintra laminated to the surface. A perfect example for shops who have never done this before. We'll take pics through the entire process including the routing of copy.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I am really looking forward to the step by step and trying out this technique. I just landed a project for a woodgrain looking hdu sign above the entry driveway 3' x 50'. I don't have access to router or sandblasting but sub out both of those. Plus the sign is 30' up, so detail isn't an issue. Thank you Pierre!
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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My pleasure entirely. Strange how when you get some years on you, you get less protective of your own little trade secrets no matter how insignificant. Sometimes the obvious is not so obvious. This will take a number of days since we're photographing the entire process in real time for this one piece and it happens to be exactly the straightforward type of sign that is a shoe-in for shops who have never done dimensional work at all. The plywood and PB are now laminated together with PB240. We'll be sending the entire project to Barb at the same time we send it to Kellie at Coastal. We've already quoted this piece at $840.00. This is Kalispell Montana pricing and breaks down to a nominal $70 per square foot. Keep in mind that this is a wholesale price to the Architect. He'll be marking it up to the end user from there. You'll be setting a nominal price at 100 to 250% more than this depending on your individual AO. We estimate no more than a total of 4 actual hours in the complete execution, but there are adhesive, paint and sealer curing times in between. We keep a number of projects going simultaneously so nobody is sitting still waiting for anything to cure. We depend on execution speed and a very rapid turnover here. My boys and girls are very fast at this sort of sign. With a little practice, so can you even if you've never done anything like it. The only odd cost factor you'll incur is the copy from a Letterhead associate or Gemini, but for a long time before the CNC we cut our own copy with a band saw. We still have two of them here..... a very big one and a small precision table top type, both good investments for a budding dimensional sign shop for cutting sintra copy and logos.
Back when I can.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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30 feet up, who can even see the dimension? I think the background technique is great and why not let others show what they have done? Mr. Sherby, Mr. Bohrer, and Mr. Harding all show some excellent signs, and GOOD SPACING as well!
OOF!
me
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
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Yeah. Very funny, Meyer. I'm sure Rosemary thinks as much of you too. I'll send Barb the finished process. I had forgoten about you. Thanks for reminding me. I'm gone.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I don't think that you always have to let the customer or architect dictate the layout of the sign. We often re-layout a sign for better readability and spacing and offer them our layout or theirs. Architects sometimes have no taste in what looks good or how things should be spaced in a sign, most are used to working with a graphic artist who lays out magazine ads. If we win the bid on a project and have a contract to produce a sign that a architect has designed we often approuch the customer with a working drawing of the project that has been tweaked from the architects version and get the customer to sign off on it.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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It appears that Meyer and I have buried the hatchet. He won't be able to sit all the way back in a chair any longer, but............... Its settled. Illustrators are a touchy, edgy sort. And opinionated. Just ask either one of us.
Dick, its not that way in my world. If the owner, board of directors or the architect ask that something be developed, then we have that creative lattitude. But........ Typically we're the last in the chain of the owner, architect and general contactor. We're not talking about end-users here. I'm guessing that you deal mostly with end-users. When a layout has been approved by the owner, board of directors and the architect the last thing we would even consider is changing what they've directed us to do. We're first and foremost a production shop. Secondarily, we're illustrators, layout artists and visionaries. If the dollars dictate production..... that's what we do. In the past 10 years we've never contradicted one of our architects, or ever done an end-around to his client, and that's exactly why Latigo's income is what it is. How many 26 year old studio owners do you know that broke the $350,000.00 mark last year? He did. And he did it following those precepts. Never irritate an architect of make them dwell on something they consider a done deal. Just do it. For nost of my history I've thought exactly as you do. Actually, in my heart of hearts I still do. It kills me to see something cycle through here that I know is marginal or completely wrong from a balance, color, perspective and esthetic point of view, but I've also learned when to keep my mouth shut. My son has taught me well. It used to be about the art. Now its about the money. Look at our website. Its really nothing more than a portfolio for Architects and Generals, nothing fancy and not the public. My stuff is all the artsy, illustrative stuff. Looks cool but despite maxing out what they would pay, the dollar per project wasn't there. Look in the commercial section. All Latigo...... all money. Its frustrating for me, for sure. But I've had my run. Now its his turn, and he's running faster. Am I proud of him? Waddaya think?
P
[ April 09, 2008, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Well I don't know about the backstory here, but I'm looking forward to the tutorial and I appreciate the effort Pierre. I do know what you mean about money vs art, it's nothing new, when I started one of the guys I worked for always said to leave it alone, no more design tweaking, no more adding outlines or shades that weren't in the budget, and this was when it took 15-20 minutes and a few pennies in paint to embellish something. If I taken that type of advice a little more to heart I'd probably be able to retire now(if I wanted to).
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