posted
I recently did a dimensional sign for a good customer of ours. Raised prismatic letters on a dark green background, letters have a black outline.
The complaint from the customer is that at certain times of the day and at night with the spot light, he can't read the sign because it's "too brilliant".
BUT he loves the sign, loves the goldleaf. He just wants it fixed so it can be read.
I have never had that complaint before! Any suggestions???
-------------------- Thom CREATIVE SIGNWORKS Lancaster,PA creativesignworks1@juno.com Posts: 79 | From: lancaster,PA usa | Registered: Dec 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I seem to recall in a Signcraft article where Mike Jackson ran into a similar problem. The client didn't like how bright the gold was on the carved eagle.
I think his solution was to put a coat of clear over the gold.
posted
I also have this complaint with a lot of gold leaf signs, especially ones with lots of copy. I've started applying the leaf a little early to avoid a "mirror" finish. I too would try a clear, or just tell him it will dull a little with time. For clear I would use a two part marine clear or whatever you would use on a vehicle gold job. Also try adjusting the spotlight or replacing it with some less "spot" fixtures
posted
One thing he can do very easily is use a lower-wattage lamp in his lights. Most people make the error of "more is better", and end up over-lighting gold leaf. Gold doesn't need a lot of light; it will look bright enough to read with a lot less light than you might think.
Try this before ruining your gild with a clearcoat, then report back and see if it helped.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
The lighting, I'm sure, can be fine tuned. But God has declined my request to adjust the sunlight for my sign during the day. (Perhaps Bruce Almighty can help with that one.)
It sounds like the clear coat is worth a try.
-------------------- Thom CREATIVE SIGNWORKS Lancaster,PA creativesignworks1@juno.com Posts: 79 | From: lancaster,PA usa | Registered: Dec 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
You never mentioned whether the sign is inside or out.
If it is our side I personally would never clear coat it...it will dull it down which I know you want to happen but it will also flake before to long.
Over a period of time just the dirt in the air will tone it down a bit...you also might try changing the burnish with a piece of velvet and put a brushed finish on it ...that way you can control (to a degree) the angle the light comes off the gold.
Most likely there is a time of day the glare is more intense...try to determin that then experiment with the burnish ...you might be surprised.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Did you ever notice how good gold looks in the fog.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you read the section in the LeBlanc book, the one Kent Smith keep updating, there is a section showing the way light is refracted in the tiny grooves created by burnishing. They show photographs of the difference between vertical and horizontal burnishing. I think you might be able to fix this problem by studying that section of the book and doing what you learn.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will not change the course of the sun. Forget it. Ain't gonna happen.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
Steeper prism letters are hard to read. So my advice is, in the future, lower the angle. Even the slightest angle works great! A slight round overs also look good.
The same goes for V-Carve letters. Flatten out the angles.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for all the advice & tips. Personally, I like the sign as is. While driving past the sign, the angle changes quickly, so the problem of too much refletion is very brief.
But, in the end, it's the customer who needs to be happy.
His comment to me was this: "All the signs you have done for us in the past have exceeded our expectations. This is the first time we have not been satisfied with the results."
I'll let you know how it turns out.
-------------------- Thom CREATIVE SIGNWORKS Lancaster,PA creativesignworks1@juno.com Posts: 79 | From: lancaster,PA usa | Registered: Dec 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would suggest having the customer drive by his sign, not stand in front of it. As Rick said a consideration of burnish is in order as well as mounting angle. Shimming the top of the sign slightly will change the direction of the reflection although time of year for position of the sun may be an issue as well. Never clearcoat unless forced into it as a LAST resort because the clear will not last as long as the gold.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Yes and No with the gold lasting longer than the clear coat. Gilding done on vehicles or on signs close to a sprinker need a good clear coat. I can think of a dozen cases where it's going to make the gold last and last.
There are several excellent automotive clears as well as good old Matthews, which we love. Doesn't turn yellow or peal off. Looks good and last a long time.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, certainly given the damage caused by the obvious which I would add mountings where the public can touch and lean against the sign. But in general, where this is not the case, the gold will outlast a coat of clear. The longest I have found for automotove, two component clears is 18 years while the longest unfinished gold I have found outdoors is 322 years although there are rumors of others.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
You should have said it's considered standard practice to topcoat gold, laid down on motorcycles, vehicles, or any situation where abbresion will occur.
You said "Never clear coat unless forced into it." That's just flat wrong.
I too enjoy the brilliance of uncoated gold but sometimes it's not the best choice.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well Joe, I stand by my comment for these reasons. First and foremost, not all gold, even on vehicles needs to be clearcoated, depending upon service situations. Second, I think it is critical to send a clear message to realitve newcomers. Third, my reference is to how we are "forced" by circumstances, mainly intended use and abuse, to clear over gold. That is to say that my preference is to never clear which will allow the gold to have a more natural appearance. Harsh or consistant vehicle washing, abraision, sprinkler instrusion, tarnishing emission proximity and others that I have posted about over the years literally force us to diminish the natural appearance of the gold by clearcoating.
[ January 26, 2008, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was astonished last fall when Jane and I vacationed in New England and attended Moose Mania by the quantity of carved gold leafed signage in that area. We had plenty of sunshine during the trip and although I found the signs to be beautiful, I did find them hard to read and in some cases, impossible to read, because of their brilliance. During a sunny day there's not much that can be done -- at night with adjusted lighting -- that may help.
I think this customer should realize that you have to make a compromise in readability in order to have that classic look. With the sheer quantity of these signs ... shoot ... we even saw a laundromat with a carved gold leaf sign, the pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" and have such a sign must be enormous.
I thought the most readable of the signs we saw had very dark backgrounds and the letters themselves had significant negative spacing and kerning that helped diminish the glow that the brilliance of the gold was giving off. I also though if the copy had a white or off white/ivory outline around a light weight gold leafed letter and with increased spacing -- it might help.
You rarely see those kinds of signs in our area. I don't know why (they're gorgeous), but they seem to be more in keeping with the meandering curved roads and slower traffic. Out in the flat prairie lands, the roads are straight and the traffic moves along, the signs are set way back and that sign mind set is the same when you slow down in the small towns. We have a few such signs that I've made around here, but they're in places with walk by viewage or low speed areas, so you have plenty of time to view them.
Along the coast of Maine, if you don't know how to carve gold leaf signs, you might have a hard time making a living.
[ January 28, 2008, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Several years ago, I called Paul White about the angle of the "V" cut letter as it relates to what I call "Flashing". The conversation didn't last long.....he said the deeper the "V" the less light gets in.....the shallower, more. More in......more out!
I increase the angle of the "V" (deeper) for the signs that face South. Shallow for those facing North.
I did a sample (you could too) showing 3 different angles of the same letter, right next to each other.....even the color of the gold is different depending on the angle....I'll see if I can get a pic.
Just a few of my thoughts.......
joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
although that flash does make some signs a little hard to read at certain angles and times of day, it can also make a sign impossible to ignore in a world of competing messages
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
For the majority of clients, the readability issue is a compromise they seem to be willing to make for the prestige value of a gilded, carved sign. Bill Diaz made the point about spacing letters farther apart, another one of those details that has been lost with letters being computer generated, whether they are CNC routed or hand carved with a computer pattern or through a mask.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK.....here's the samples. There is NOT a high gild on these. Four shots at different angles...til I got a "Flash". Can you tell which is deepest? Do you see a color difference? Is this helpfull at all????
joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
Just a few of my thoughts.......
Printer-friendly view of this topic